pls tune down the field acks!!

[Minotaur]

AKDejaVu;

Actually surpizingly enough, bombers had a higher kill per sortie ratio then the fighters did (Allied).

B-17 23 kills per 1000 sorties. (Propaganda edge)
B-24 22 kills per 1000 sorties.
All fighters 11 kills per 1000 sorties.

Go figure...

Mino

[AKDejaVu]

Once again.. how many of those kills were done by solo B-17's at low alt?

[juzz]

Makes perfect sense (to me). The Luftwaffe avoided Allied fighters as much as possible later in the war, and concentrated on the 4-engine heavies. Early on they avoided "Rodeos" if they identified them, just like the RAF ignored the "Frei-jagd" in BoB. Therefore the bombers would be much more likely to encounter fighter opposition - and thus they shot down more per sortie.

[dolomite]

Sledriver-

5 seconds to drop? If you take the 12x500 load you can easily level a base, but it takes much longer than 5 seconds. You'll have to make several passes, and that gives the fighters time to climb. You'll want that height.

My experience on both sides of the bomber issue is if you can avoid letting a fighter getting 2-3k above you, or avoid coordinated attacks from 2 quarters, you most likely will live. If a fighter can make a high angle, high speed pass you are done for.

[combat23]

In WWII lone bombers were "easy meat". Thats why they flew in formation. Because of those large formations and the fact that several gunners on different planes were shooting at each bomber lead to overclaiming by large amounts. ie 1 fighter claimed by 5 gunners on 4 different bombers.

[juzz]

I like the "Circus" idea: up to 24 squadrons of Hurri's and Spit's escorting about 6 bombers. That ought to keep 'em safe.  

[Vermillion]

You guys haven't brought up the most obvious reason bombers had the highest kill per sortie ratio.

Inaccurate claims.

It is a well known fact that due to the way that bombers flew in mass formations, many gunners claimed the same kill, often as many as 4 or 5 gunners claiming the same kill.

Yes Bomber Command made some effort to sort out kills, but they also turned a blind eye towards the multiple claims practice since it helped keep up morale in the face of horrendous losses they were taking.

I read in one book where they did an indepth study of one bombing raid, and analyzed the kill claims from the gunners.

The gunners ended up claiming over 80 kills of german fighters that day.

Then the researchers went back and analyzed the German records for the same day.

The Germans lost like 6 fighters that day, with around 12 more heavily damaged and later scrapped.

In TOTAL, the entire attacking German fighter force had less fighters in the air that day, than the US Bomber gunners claimed to have shot down.

And I am sure this "kill inflation" happened on all sides of the war.

[note: the above numbers are estimates from my memory of the article I read, so please don't quote numbers from some book that I was inaccurate in my statement]



------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[juzz]

Uhh, Verm...

Because of those large formations and the fact that several gunners on different planes were shooting at each bomber lead to overclaiming by large amounts. ie 1 fighter claimed by 5 gunners on 4 different bombers.

[Central]

Hey Verm,

Yeah, kinda like the Germans claiming numerous kills on Spits, when the whole time Spits used pre-planned stalls/spins  in order to evade bogey. Tricking them in thinking they got the kill, hoping the axis wouldnt dive and finish the kill.

Too much Combatsim for me :-)

Central
Dickweed FG
 http://bombergroup.com

[juzz]

Gee, just like the RAF claiming kills on Bf109's that did an "abschwung" with full power to escape.