Author Topic: Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?  (Read 1628 times)

Offline lasersailor184

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« on: April 22, 2004, 02:45:02 PM »
Is how they are portrayed in IL2 accurate?  


It seems to me like they have a huge spread and I can't figure out why anybody would want to do that.
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Offline VooDoo

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2004, 04:45:58 PM »
Nice flamefest on ubi forum. 33 pages. Happy reading ;).

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=979109092&p=1

Offline Ecliptik

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2004, 04:47:37 PM »
They do seem to have pretty ridiculous spread in Il-2.   Very hard to concentrate fire on a particular part of your target, and recoil in that game is so powerful that it would be hard enough with a tighter spread.  The P38's nose .50 cals in the Ace expansion have a terrible spread, when they should remain extremely tight.

Il-2 remains by far the most beautiful combat sim, with a really great planeset, but there are still a number of issues with the game that really bother me.

Offline Urchin

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2004, 05:27:50 PM »
It also remains so ridiculously biased towards the Russian planes in general that it makes me sick to play it.

Offline Furball

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2004, 05:39:03 PM »
i agree with ya urch, it is unbelieveably biased.

am i also the only one that finds the AI planes doing impossible (and infuriating) moves?
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Offline Urchin

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2004, 05:42:34 PM »
Apparently the AI doesn't use real-world physics, it just does stuff.  

However... the La-7 in that game is nutty.  In a players hands.  It will turn (nose to tail, one circle), with a Spit 5.  

It is always possible that I just suck very badly, but AH and IL-2 are similar enough that while I wouldn't expect to be the cream of the crop over there... I would'nt expect to be a completely suckass newb either.

Offline lasersailor184

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2004, 06:21:40 PM »
Yeah, I hate the 109's in FB.


They can pretty much stop in mid air, yet retain energy.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline Angus

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2004, 06:16:21 AM »
Try Jane's. Surprizingly good.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Ecliptik

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2004, 05:45:48 PM »
Quote
It also remains so ridiculously biased towards the Russian planes in general that it makes me sick to play it.


Yes, that's a big problem.  It seems like the Russian aircraft can outfly anything.  Sometimes a little I-153 can give you more grief than anything.  And it seems odd that the historically poor russian ballistics aren't represented at all.  Most of the Russian cannon are more accurate than Browning machineguns!

As for the AI, well, if you record some flights and watch the AI in furballs, they often defy the rules of aerodynamics (powersliding 262's, anyone?).  And, while they aren't very smart in a tactical sense, they seem to have GODLY throttle/flap control (perhaps sometimes combined with bending the laws of physics), such that you can almost never make them overshoot, even if they're coming in fast.  Combined with inhuman gunnery skills, it can be pretty frustrating.

My final beef with Il-2 is the view system.  It's trash.  Anyone who plays Il-2 after AH will hate it.  It's absurdly restrictive.

1.  Your head is jammed into a rotating vice.  You can't change head positions.  Very frustrating when instruments are obscured by the stick or yoke, or when you wish you could peer around that one canopy spar that's blocking your view of an enemy in front of you.
2.  Views pan absurdly slowly.  It's like you're wearing a helmet made of lead.  Unless you're pulling hard Gs, anyone should be able to snap their head around quickly.  We also have things called eyeballs, they can move too.
3. No rear or rear-up view.  Doesn't make sense.  Anyone can look directly behind as long as you can move one shoulder a few inches.  We don't need to be able to move our heads around a continuous 360 degrees like in AH, but no six view is silly.  There should be a different six view for looking over each shoulder.

The the system in Il-2 conspires to make good SA annoyingly hard.

Yet, despite these flaws, I still enjoy the game very much, and wish Maddox more success.  I hope they improve in these areas with their next projects.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 05:49:23 PM by Ecliptik »

Offline Chortle

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2004, 10:31:19 PM »
You can change the pan speed in the conf.ini file - if you look for Hookview Config in the list, the last entry is speed, I think its 6 by default. Views are bad though.

Offline straffo

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2004, 03:20:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ecliptik
Yes, that's a big problem.  It seems like the Russian aircraft can outfly anything.  Sometimes a little I-153 can give you more grief than anything.  And it seems odd that the historically poor russian ballistics aren't represented at all.  Most of the Russian cannon are more accurate than Browning machineguns!
 


Wich Russian gun would have poor ballistic ?
Give me some example please.
Your post cover the whole russian gun ever or still produced :D,that's a pretty large spectrum :p


Have you done a Browning/ShvaK test in AH ?

Offline Kweassa

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2004, 07:30:46 AM »
Try thinking in the way that the things bother you may actually be something better matching reality.

 ..

* Most of the 50cal armed planes have wing-armament. They are very sensitive to convergence ranges.

* Also, the fact that the 50cals don't contain any HE component calls for a concentrated, prolonged shot on a surface that matters.

* Add in to the fact that quality of hits are also modelled in that game and explains a lot of the troubles you may be having.

 
 "Ridiculous", is something like getting a kill by a spray of 50cals that knock the entire tail appendage out at 600yards.(Which is ofcourse, pretty much very unlikely in FB/AEP opposed to what would happen in AH)

 Check your convergence, and fire only from that range -  too far, or even too close, will greatly reduce the effectivity of the guns.   Use it right, and there's nothing "ridiculous" about 50cals in FB/AEP - a 1 second burst usually kills the target plane, or damages it to near fatal levels.

Offline Batz

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2004, 09:57:08 AM »
I have np with 50s in Fb, the light most planes quickly.

I have looked through that guys site about "dispersion" and it looks more like the cone of fire on 50s maybe a bit large (AH has adjusted the same cone). Firing at convergence works fine.

Also if you think Soviet guns weren't accurate then you need to do some research. Shvaks are excellent.

Offline Ecliptik

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2004, 01:33:52 AM »
I'll retract the line about gun accuracy, that was purely anecdotal.

Offline Kweassa

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Portrayal of M2 .50 cals in IL2?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2004, 02:44:27 AM »
Depends on the version Ecliptik.

 To be fair, the early FB version did have a bug concerning the P-47 where the spread was caused by incomprehensible shaking of the nose. That's pretty much solved about now.

 Frankly, the accuracy of guns and ease of aiming in FB was mostly caused by how much the nose shakes around  under maneuvering/firing conditions.

 I won't go as far as to say it's biased, but the tendency I have felt, is that the Russian planes hardly shake at all - the nose(and thus, the aiming reticle) stays almost rock-steady in Russian planes even when after rolling or turning, or during fire, etc. US planes under Russian service are portrayed that way too.

 Compared to that, the German planes have a very noticeable tendency of side-slipping during rolls which momentarily shakes the aim off.. and the US planes shake all over when firing all 50cals.

 This tendency gave rise to the comment where people would emphasize "the 6x50s on the P-40(Russian used) are more powerful than the 8x50s on the P-47"

 ..

 A lot of that's solved now... or at least I perceive it to be.