Author Topic: Flip Flop  (Read 2149 times)

Offline Charon

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Flip Flop
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2004, 10:35:44 AM »
Quote
flip/flop is a pretty good reason not to choose someone to be a leader. A leader should have a vision and the resolve to bring it about. Of course you want a leader to be wise enough to know when to change but not someone that reverses every time the wind changes direction.


I agree. Too bad Mr Kerry isn't the only "Flip Flopper." Certainly a biased source (below), but the list seems fairly accurate [and a fairly accurate view of Washington politics in general]. Of course there is no discussion for the complexities behind the flip flops, but that same level of discussion typically isn't applied to Kerry's flip flops either.

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If Bush wants to compare flip-flops with Kerry—Bring it on!
By Mick Youther


The Bush Attack Machine started to define John Kerry as “a captive of special interests”. Then it came out that Bush had received more campaign contributions from Enron alone, than Kerry had received from lobbyists during all his years in the Senate; so the attack moved on to Plan B— defining Kerry as a flip-flopper and Bush as “steady and steadfast”.

They know that anyone who has been in the Senate for eighteen years will have a voting record that can be distorted to look bad. If a Senator voted against a bloated spending-bill that contained funding for breast cancer research, they can claim that Senator is against breast cancer research. Ask John McCain—they pulled that one on him in the 2000 primary.

Now their problem is that the attack on Kerry has resulted in lists of Bush flip-flops popping up everywhere. This is just a sampling of the kinds of things that are coming out:

• When Bush first took office, he said the economy was so good we should have huge tax cuts, but now he claims we were in a recession then and that is why we now have record deficits.

• Candidate Bush was very vocal in his criticism of nation building, but now President Bush is busy building nations in Afghanistan, Iraq, and it looks like Haiti is next. These nations are being built with our soldier’s lives and our tax dollars.

• Bush claimed his budget plan would reduce the National Debt. Instead, the federal debt has increased to almost $7 trillion.

• Candidate Bush promised to protect the Social Security trust fund, but President Bush has already squandered more than $350 billion from the fund. (Consortium News, 3/2/04)

• Bush said he would, “enforce fiscal discipline on Congress, because when spending is out of control, deficits increase and our economic growth is hindered...", but federal spending has increased 23.7 percent since he took office. (Bill Gallagher, Friends of Liberty, 12/11/03)

• Candidate Bush proposed regulating carbon dioxide, but two months after taking office, President Bush changed his mind.

• Bush opposed a Homeland Security Department when it was proposed by Democrats; but later embraced the idea and took credit for it.

• Bush said he would veto the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform legislation, but changed his mind and signed it.

• Bush opposed an investigation of the attacks of 9/11—then he supported it, but his administration has done everything it could to obstruct the investigation.

• Bush opposed an Iraq WMD investigation, but then he's for it because he has to pretend he’s interested in why he was so wrong about Iraq’s WMD.

• When asked about gay marriage, candidate Bush said, “the state can do what they want to do,”—but now President Bush wants a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.

• During an unsuccessful run for Congress in 1978, Bush opposed the pro-life amendment and favored leaving the abortion question to a woman and her doctor. Then, like his father before him, he customized his beliefs to become more electable to conservatives. (The Nation, 6/15/00)

• Bush promised money for first responders, but failed to provide the funds.

• Bush promised billions of dollars to help fight AIDS in Africa, but failed to provide the funds.

• Bush presented his “No Child Left Behind Program” with great fanfare, but failed to provide the funds.

• Bush continues to praise American troops, but continues to try to cut benefits for them and their families.

• Bush said, "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden”, but changed it to, "I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.”

To understand why steady and steadfast Bush would change his mind about so many important issues, you must understand the problem he faces every day. He has to somehow fool enough voters to be reelected, without actually doing anything for them or straying too far from the NeoCon’s agenda for the New World Order. So, if a majority of voters want something—like clean air, Bush is for it. He won’t follow through, or he won’t fund it properly, or he will do the exact opposite of what he promised; but he will continue to be for it. If a majority of voters oppose something; then Bush will oppose it too, but he will go right ahead and do it anyway—while speaking against it.

If that is the kind of President you want, Bush is your man. If you’d like something better, John Kerry is your man.

Posted March 20, 2004


[edit: actually some of Bush's flip flops noted above are more unfunded soundbytes, where you propose something that sounds good and popular (but may not be politically or fiscally practical), but then don't provide the funding to actually make it happen]

Charon
« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 10:43:35 AM by Charon »

Offline Torque

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Flip Flop
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2004, 10:47:15 AM »
Torture the statistics enough they will confess.

Offline Udie

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Flip Flop
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2004, 11:00:35 AM »
• When Bush first took office, he said the economy was so good we should have huge tax cuts, but now he claims we were in a recession then and that is why we now have record deficits.


 I can't remember hearing him say that one time!  Does anybody here remember Clinton/Gore crying about how Bush was "talking down the economy" Durign the election?  That tax cut was to stop the economy from getting worse and in my view worked.

• Candidate Bush was very vocal in his criticism of nation building, but now President Bush is busy building nations in Afghanistan, Iraq, and it looks like Haiti is next. These nations are being built with our soldier’s lives and our tax dollars.


 This is somewhat true but things are a heck of a lot diferent then they were 4 years ago.  It can also be argued that this is one of those times when I leader see's where he was wrong.  It could also be that maybe Bush thinks he can do it better than Clinton did.  Wasn't Hatii one of Clinton's big successes? ;)


• Bush claimed his budget plan would reduce the National Debt. Instead, the federal debt has increased to almost $7 trillion.

  He said that before he knew we'd have a 2 front war.  But this is a very sore spot with me.  He should have vetoed some spending bills to cut down on the pork.  I think that was conresses "fee" for giving him most of what he wants.

• Candidate Bush promised to protect the Social Security trust fund, but President Bush has already squandered more than $350 billion from the fund. (Consortium News, 3/2/04)

huh?

• Bush said he would, “enforce fiscal discipline on Congress, because when spending is out of control, deficits increase and our economic growth is hindered...", but federal spending has increased 23.7 percent since he took office. (Bill Gallagher, Friends of Liberty, 12/11/03)

 Isn't the war the biggest part of that increase?  Didn't we have to replace a bunch of weapons that were used in the 90's and not restocked?  Otherewise see my answer above :)

• Candidate Bush proposed regulating carbon dioxide, but two months after taking office, President Bush changed his mind.

this guy talking about Kyoto?  Good move by Bush if you ask me, which you didn't :D

• Bush opposed a Homeland Security Department when it was proposed by Democrats; but later embraced the idea and took credit for it.  

 Yes becaues all plans should have remained the same after 9/11.  There was no need for change at all, none I tell ya!

• Bush said he would veto the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform legislation, but changed his mind and signed it.

 Must have been something political envolved ;)

• Bush opposed an investigation of the attacks of 9/11—then he supported it, but his administration has done everything it could to obstruct the investigation.

Prove it....

• Bush opposed an Iraq WMD investigation, but then he's for it because he has to pretend he’s interested in why he was so wrong about Iraq’s WMD.

subjective partisan opinion, again prove it...

• When asked about gay marriage, candidate Bush said, “the state can do what they want to do,”—but now President Bush wants a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.

because courts have been making the decisions not the States.

• During an unsuccessful run for Congress in 1978, Bush opposed the pro-life amendment and favored leaving the abortion question to a woman and her doctor. Then, like his father before him, he customized his beliefs to become more electable to conservatives. (The Nation, 6/15/00)

 couldn't he have changed his mind after he found God when he was 40?  Again subjective partisan opinion.

• Bush promised money for first responders, but failed to provide the funds.

 Hmm bush proposed money he can't promise anything and I've never heared him say the words "I promise".

Bush promised billions of dollars to help fight AIDS in Africa, but failed to provide the funds.

 Again Bush proposed this and never promised.  Congress controls the purse strings doesn't the author of this article know that?  I be he does ;)

• Bush presented his “No Child Left Behind Program” with great fanfare, but failed to provide the funds.

wasn't this one of the first things he got through congress?  didn't he partner with ole teddy the drunk murderer on this? ;)

• Bush continues to praise American troops, but continues to try to cut benefits for them and their families.

 prove it, what an assinign statement.

• Bush said, "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden”, but changed it to, "I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.”

 heh what a tool this "writer" is.

Offline Charon

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Flip Flop
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2004, 11:17:49 AM »
See Udie, you're providing all sorts of explinations. Similar explanations exist for Kerry' flip flops. For example:

Quote
You have to know how the Senate works to begin to fathom Kerry's now notorious statement defending his stance on appropriations for reconstruction efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan: "I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it." That is shorthand for saying he voted in favor of a bill that would have rolled back some of Bush's tax cuts to help cover the rebuilding costs; when that version failed, he voted against the bill that excluded the tax provision.


http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/05/flip.flops.tm/

What gets me, is that so many people are so good at seeing through the political PR BS when it involves the other party, but absolutely refuse to take a good hard look (using the same focus) at their candidate or their party.

[edit: as for the last line, Udie, those are direct quotes with similar quotes existing for Cheney and I think  Rumsfeld.]

Charon
« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 11:38:48 AM by Charon »

Offline Charon

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Flip Flop
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2004, 12:18:58 PM »
With a campaign, and an attack strategy, the goal is to develop a few simple messages and repeat those messages until they sink in. The reasons are simple and related to human behaviors that every advertising guru, PR flack and marketer gets drilled into them from their first "101" level university class.

1. Most people will not put any real effort into digging for the truth. You're lucky if they read past the headline and lead paragraph of a news story -- if they even read the newspaper at all (not to mention the inadequacies of a 45 sec to 1.5 minutes for a broadcast news piece). A rebuttal may easily be overlooked, particularly if it happens a day or two later and comes out on page 20. Too many rebuttals, even if accurate and honest, can put a candidate on the defensive and make him/her look guilty. It’s better to concentrate on attacking the other guy/gal with most of that effort. This covers marketing to the "middle ground" voters.

2. The hard core supporters will always be motivated to see the best in their candidate and see the worst in the other. This works really well with point no. 1. The goal is not to convert any of the hard cores, but to get them motivated to turn out on Election Day.


3. It's easy (see 1 and 2) to craft messages that push the buttons of certain demographics. Joe-six-pack, soccer mom, angry white male, YUPPIE, BUPPIE, etc. refer to groups that have certain cultural identities. And guess what, they are generally accurate and can be banked upon. People make an awful lot of $ selling everything from hemorrhoid cream to candidates to wars using the right list/time slot/audience and the proper message development. Where message development is concerned, emotion is more important than fact (unless its B2B communications).

The fewer messages the better, and as long as there are no outright lies, omissions and slant are perfectly acceptable (again, it is generally counter productive to spend too much time cleaning them up). Focus groups and surveys help identify which messages (usually from a long list) have the most traction with the particular audience.

4. Once a message is crafted the goal is to repeat the message every time someone in the campaign/party/administration has an opportunity to speak and through advertising. You always stay on message. For example, it is no surprise (except for the level of success), that 70 some percent of the people in NY think Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 even though nobody in the administration actually said he was. All that is needed is to mention Saddam Hussein and either terrorist, 9/11 or Al Queda within the 2-4 sentences of each other. The human mind will fill in the rest. “September 11 taught us one thing, we have to be vigilant against terrorists,” said speechwriter Charon, though Admin person’s lips. “Saddam Hussein has WMD, and he poses a threat to the region and the world, and that threat must be removed.”

So far, Kerry is being defined as a Flip Flopper (to be expected with any Washington politician), whose war record is not as good as would be suggested. Bush is being challenged on the War in Iraq (which he certainly spearheaded) and the economy (which is bigger than one man, even the president). However, don’t expect a great deal of in-depth analysis for either since that only confuses the majority of voters. Attack ads are just too effective.

Charon
« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 12:28:15 PM by Charon »

Offline Udie

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Flip Flop
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2004, 12:31:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
See Udie, you're providing all sorts of explinations. Similar explanations exist for Kerry' flip flops. For example:

 

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/05/flip.flops.tm/

What gets me, is that so many people are so good at seeing through the political PR BS when it involves the other party, but absolutely refuse to take a good hard look (using the same focus) at their candidate or their party.

[edit: as for the last line, Udie, those are direct quotes with similar quotes existing for Cheney and I think  Rumsfeld.]

Charon




 I'm sure kerry does have some valid reasons for some of his flip flops. But I'm also sure he has many many many more flip flops than valid reasons.   I see Bushes politics too ;) and it's obvious that he's on the attack.  Problem for the Dems is that Bush has been right. ;)    What's the quote from Kerry in the Bush add?  "I actually voted for the resolution on Iraq, before I voted against it."  That says it all right there.   Kerry is NOT a leader Bush is.  You may not like Bushes style of leadership but at least he's leading!  What has Kerry led in the past 25 to 30 years?

 And yes I know that last line was a direct quote from Bush, I remember when he said it.  The hack left out the part about how much time passed between those 2 statements and the fact that we had crushed Al Queda's base of operations.  Do you think that the "writer" thought we actually stopped looking for him because Bush made that statement?

Offline lazs2

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Flip Flop
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2004, 01:10:59 PM »
My sole reason for not voting for him is that he is a democrat.  Even if he were a "good" democrat... he will still team up with the other women and take away my rights every chance he gets.

lazs

Offline Gnslngr

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Flip Flop
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2004, 01:46:09 PM »
Kerry is a walking talking noodle..... [forrestgump voice] John kerry is like a box of chocolates.......you never know what your gonna get.....that's all I've got to say about that [/forrestgump voice]

Offline Duedel

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Flip Flop
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2004, 01:49:58 PM »
Sudan!

Offline Charon

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Flip Flop
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2004, 02:27:57 PM »
Here's a pretty good wrap up of the "$87 billion/voted for and against" part of the attack ad. Again, it illustrates how legislation work in Washington, and how flip flopping is a way of life.

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The updated version of the ad was nearly identical in wording but added near the end footage of Kerry giving an awkward but widely quoted explanation of his position:

Announcer: And what does Kerry say now?

Kerry: I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it


Kerry was referring to a measure he co-sponsored that would have provided the $87 billion while also temporarily reversing Bush's tax cuts for those making $400,000 a year or more. That measure was rejected  57-42.


Good review of the overall commercial as well.
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=155

Attack crap like this has been around as long as American politics, but at least in the old days they would go the extra mile and try to buy your vote with some good whiskey :)

I think Kerry is just another Washington Hack, but the lesser of two evils for the time being IMO. I'm really tired of the neo con vision and they way they do business to achieve their foreign policy goals.

Charon

Offline Sixpence

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Flip Flop
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2004, 02:30:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
My sole reason for not voting for him is that he is a democrat.  Even if he were a "good" democrat... he will still team up with the other women and take away my rights every chance he gets.

lazs


Yeah, like your right to privacy, or your right to overtime after 40 hours.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline lazs2

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Flip Flop
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2004, 02:37:54 PM »
how is my right to privacy endangered and who ever said that "overtime" was a right?/..    I work that out with my employer or union or whatever.  I sure as heck wouldn't vote for a democrat based on protecting "overtime"   gotta do better than that.... And no... the spotted owl is not one of my worries either...  Nor is banning scooters to 'save the children' or propping up a  failed (and deservedly so) school system.

lazs

Offline Gunslinger

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Flip Flop
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2004, 02:59:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Yeah, like your right to privacy, or your right to overtime after 40 hours.


Quote
The Bush administration has touted the new overtime rules as a long overdue update of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, pointing out that they would extend overtime pay eligibility to an estimated 1.3 million low-income workers.

Under federal law, hourly employees are entitled to time-and-a-half pay (150 percent of the normal rate) if their work week extends beyond 40 hours.

But a study last year by the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), a non-partisan Washington think tank, found the new rules would also remove overtime pay protection from some eight million workers by reclassifying them as executives, professionals--in the case of Garrity, for example--and administrators.

Workers earning more than $65,000 a year would also be exempt from overtime pay

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0115-01.htm

Offline Sixpence

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Flip Flop
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2004, 04:24:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0115-01.htm


http://www.laborresearch.org/story.php?id=16

"Last year, the Labor Department investigated more than 31,000 worker complaints and recovered $212 million in unpaid overtime wages, a 21 percent increase over 2002. "

"Republican Senators Judd Gregg (NH) and Kay Bailey Hutchison (TX) have proposed legislation (S.B. 624) to amend the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) and allow employers to schedule work weeks of up to 50 hours without having to pay time and a half for overtime."

"In 1997, Senate Democrats beat back a similar assault on overtime laws propsed by former U.S. Senator John Ashcroft (now U.S. Attorney General under Bush)."

Prepare yourself for the standard 50 hour workweek, enjoy.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 04:38:24 PM by Sixpence »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Gnslngr

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Flip Flop
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2004, 10:54:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
http://www.laborresearch.org/story.php?id=16

"Last year, the Labor Department investigated more than 31,000 worker complaints and recovered $212 million in unpaid overtime wages, a 21 percent increase over 2002. "

"Republican Senators Judd Gregg (NH) and Kay Bailey Hutchison (TX) have proposed legislation (S.B. 624) to amend the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) and allow employers to schedule work weeks of up to 50 hours without having to pay time and a half for overtime."

"In 1997, Senate Democrats beat back a similar assault on overtime laws propsed by former U.S. Senator John Ashcroft (now U.S. Attorney General under Bush)."

Prepare yourself for the standard 50 hour workweek, enjoy.


so based on your statement I can say John Kerry wants to RAISE taxes.  I dont have to say its for people that make 400K or more just that he wants to raise taxes.

PLEASE, just cause they want to authorize a 50 hour work week doesnt mean that jow blow who works for $10 boxing orders isnt gonna get his OT.  it means that his manager who makes 65K a year wont.