Flip Flop

[lazs2]

sixpense... all I see is that revenues increased during his term.   The fact that more was spent has nothing to do with it.   Are you saying we should have higher taxes even tho it lowers revenue overall?

seems that cutting spending AND taxes would be a better way to do it.  

I don't think adding more useless social programs and increasing spending and then gutting the military to pay for it is a particularly wise thing to do either.

also... seems that what people are calling Bush's "flip flops" are not him changing his position so much as not completeing all his tasks that he wanted to... kerry on the other hand... doesn't seem to have any fixed tasks or goals.  he "flip flops"  or "jap slaps" as you prefer.

lazs

[strk]

Originally posted by lazs2
sixpense... all I see is that revenues increased during his term.   The fact that more was spent has nothing to do with it.   Are you saying we should have higher taxes even tho it lowers revenue overall?

seems that cutting spending AND taxes would be a better way to do it.  

I don't think adding more useless social programs and increasing spending and then gutting the military to pay for it is a particularly wise thing to do either.

also... seems that what people are calling Bush's "flip flops" are not him changing his position so much as not completeing all his tasks that he wanted to... kerry on the other hand... doesn't seem to have any fixed tasks or goals.  he "flip flops"  or "jap slaps" as you prefer.

lazs

some links, please.  

Reagan era saw record deficits and record military spending.  Reagan wanted a 600 ship Navy, for starters.

Clinton signed the Deficit Reduction Act, which Republicans said would ruin the economy.  It didn't.  We had the best economy since the 50's.  

Then, if you remember, the day after the SC decision, European investers started pulling out of the stock market.  Dot-com bubble burst and outsourcing became the order of the day.

not to hijack the thread, but small business is where the hiring and jobs are.  Clinton said that back in 92 and its truer today.  Ask anyone in an IBM town, a Kodak employee, or a Wal-Mart employee.

Here is food for thought - if Americans arent getting a living wage (and a full time WalMart cashier will qualify for foodstamps) - guess who makes up the difference? - the state and national governments - and we get the tab.  

So if your prices are low because workers arent getting paid enough, you are still paying, just in a different way.  ITs not complicated - the corporations will externalize all the costs they can.  You and me pay one way or the other

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by lazs2
sixpense... all I see is that revenues increased during his term.  

lazs

Where? You mean after his 98 billion dollar tax increase?

[lazs2]

so you both admit that revenues were up during the Regan years but that spending, including military spending was up even more?  Show me a link that gives the tax revenues for Regan and for carter.

I don't like the government to spend on anything but if we have to pay for something... the collapse of the Soviet Union and the threat it imposed was the most worthwhile spending any president has ever done since WWII or don't you guys recall living under the threat of the "cold war"?

Anyone working under the minimum wage is just starting out (for one reason or another) their wages will rise in a relatively short time if they work halfway decently.   If a couple both have slightly better than or minimum wage jobs for a piddly 40 hours a week each they will make more than a living wage with a future that will be either ok, good or excellent depending on how they want to handle it.  night school, overtime rising in the corporation they are in etc.  or... just showing up every day on time.

What democrats want to do is reward having a baby out of wedlock at 17 by giving then the opportunity to move out of the house and have a government "section 8" house or apartment all of their own including food stamps, day care a car and free medical and dental... the only good thing is free schooling..

many girs look at getting pregnant as a way to "get out of the house"... a career move.

lazs

[Eagler]

Originally posted by strk
Then, if you remember, the day after the SC decision, European investers started pulling out of the stock market.  Dot-com bubble burst and outsourcing became the order of the day.

HAHHAHHHAAHHHAHHaaa - good one

u r joking right or is it fishing method whereas you slowly motor about with a couple of lines streaming behind ur boat ...

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by lazs2

so you both admit that revenues were up during the Regan years but that spending, including military spending was up even more?

Ahhh, no, lol, did you read the links?

Show me a link that gives the tax revenues for Regan and for carter.

Would that be before or after the 98 billion dollar tax increase?

I don't like the government to spend on anything but if we have to pay for something... the collapse of the Soviet Union and the threat it imposed was the most worthwhile spending any president has ever done since WWII or don't you guys recall living under the threat of the "cold war"?

Communism collapsed the soviet union, not tax cuts to the wealthy and "trickle down" economics.

Anyone working under the minimum wage is just starting out (for one reason or another) their wages will rise in a relatively short time if they work halfway decently.   If a couple both have slightly better than or minimum wage jobs for a piddly 40 hours a week each they will make more than a living wage with a future that will be either ok, good or excellent depending on how they want to handle it.  night school, overtime rising in the corporation they are in etc.  or... just showing up every day on time.

Sure, and we will soon work 80 hour weeks to do it.

What democrats want to do is reward having a baby out of wedlock at 17 by giving then the opportunity to move out of the house and have a government "section 8" house or apartment all of their own including food stamps, day care a car and free medical and dental

That has nothing to do with reaganomics, nice of you to throw it in there though

the only good thing is free schooling..

I agree, and the repubs are working on axing the pell grant. Do not be surprised if it happens.

[lazs2]

sixpense... I am sorry but what part in your links showed that tax revenues were less during regans term than carters?

Communism collapsed the soviet Union?  fair enough but it happened during Regans watch... Regan made em try to outspend us and they collapsed.  

as for working 80 hours a week... sure, if you are a married couple just starting out you may need to have both people working till their lives/careers catch up.. longer if they wish to have a brand new suv, cell phones cable tv go out to eat a couple times a week... have a house that is larger than they need etc.    Truth is... it is beyond rare for a couple to both work at minimum wage jobs and still be at minimum wage after a few years.... even Wall Mart (my daughter just started there) offers regular advancement as do fast food places and grocery stores etc.  

it is a very bad idea to dangle a socialist housing, food and health care system in front of young girls with the only stipulation being that they get pregnant out of wedlock...  Human nature being what it is. This may not have a lot to do with Reganomics except for the fact that spending on ending communism is infinetly preferable to destroying the family and punishing children by making it attractive for useless people to birth them.

The free schooling is mostly through private career schools for these women and is a good thing IMO.   Some states make attendance mandatory for "benifiets" .  

lazs

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by lazs2

sixpense... I am sorry but what part in your links showed that tax revenues were less during regans term than carters?

Like I said, is that before or after reagans 98 billion dollar tax increase? It was the largest tax increase in American history, so if you look after the increase, yeah, sure, revenue did increase.....by raising taxes!!

Communism collapsed the soviet Union?  fair enough but it happened during Regans watch... Regan made em try to outspend us and they collapsed.

You can say the same about Carter then, the grain embargo made the soviet union spend more on their own agriculture so they wouldn't be dependent on foreign grain........and that wasn't it either.  

as for working 80 hours a week... sure, if you are a married couple just starting out you may need to have both people working till their lives/careers catch up.. longer if they wish to have a brand new suv, cell phones cable tv go out to eat a couple times a week... have a house that is larger than they need etc.    Truth is... it is beyond rare for a couple to both work at minimum wage jobs and still be at minimum wage after a few years.... even Wall Mart (my daughter just started there) offers regular advancement as do fast food places and grocery stores etc.

http://www.indiana.edu/~ocmhp/040904/text/workweek.shtml

it is a very bad idea to dangle a socialist housing, food and health care system in front of young girls with the only stipulation being that they get pregnant out of wedlock

I agree, but again, nothing to do with Reaganomics(trickle down)

The free schooling is mostly through private career schools for these women and is a good thing IMO.   Some states make attendance mandatory for "benifiets".

The pell grant provides most of free education, and if you keep your grades up, can get you a great education, state programs do not come close to this. Education is key to a good job, we need to  "teach them to fish"  and they will feed themselves.

[Silat]

Originally posted by Nash
Flip flip flop flop flip  flop flip.
Why are otherwise normal people chanting "flip flop"

There are normal people on this board?

[lazs2]

sixpense.. I see nothing in the links you show that showed there was more tax revenue during carters years than there was after the Regan tax cuts and before the increase.    It seems that the tax cuts increased tax revenue over the previous admin.

as for the 80 hour week... it is you who brought up that silliness.  I was just showing you that it was false.

as for education... our socialist education system is failed.   If you want people to have something useful you either have to be wealthy so that you can sit around in a badly taught school full of useless hours or... go to a private career school that is intensive and more in tune to what a person will actually need in his career.  giving people money to waste on public education that teaches very little, takes forever and is toilet paper anyway in most cases is not the way to go.

lazs

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by lazs2

sixpense.. I see nothing in the links you show that showed there was more tax revenue during carters years than there was after the Regan tax cuts and before the increase.

Then you didn't read the links

"Instead, President Reagan's river boat gamble clobbered the federal revenue base and set off a chain of annual budget deficits unprecedented in American history"

"The result was the biggest tax cut in U.S. history: $1.8 trillion over the next nine years. But since Reagan also demanded an expensive military buildup, the federal government soon was heading for bankruptcy. Therefore, the biggest tax increase in U.S. history, $98 billion, had to be passed to try to curb the deficits"

as for the 80 hour week... it is you who brought up that silliness.  I was just showing you that it was false.

"According to a recent survey by Expedia.com, 63 percent of Americans work more than 40 hours a week, with some 40 percent exceeding the 50-hour a week mark. More than $21 billion dollars in vacation time goes unused annually (and back to employers!), as we spend 2.5 more weeks—and three months more—at work than do our Japanese and western European counterparts, respectively"

as for education... our socialist education system is failed.

So you are saying the pell grant has been a failure?

giving people money to waste on public education that teaches very little, takes forever and is toilet paper anyway in most cases is not the way to go.

ok, education is bad, got it:aok

[lazs2]

sixpense... even the quotes you show talk about deficit... NOT revenue.   what are the revenue numbers for carter and Regan?  it seem simple enough.   what you are quoting is pretty unfair.  If you build up defense you will spend.

you said 80 hour week to survive.. what you point out is that if you want to be greedy and have a lot of toys you end up working more... not the same thing.

education... I did not say going to school was bad... I said our socialist worthless public schools were bad and pretty much a huge waste of time... private schools and career collage are good.

For instance...  I don't have the right credits to get even an AA but I have maybe 80 units of schooling.   My position demands it.  Someone with a BS will probly not have anything that would make them more qualified... In fact... they would probly have less of what they neeeded... most 1 year private career schools tech more than any 2 or even 4 year public collage would teach.

pell grants may work for some rare individuals but for a lot of welfare recipeients they would be better off with a year of beauty school or a welding class or truck driving course.

lazs

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by lazs2

sixpense... even the quotes you show talk about deficit... NOT revenue.

Lack of revenue= deficit.

what are the revenue numbers for carter and Regan?  it seem simple enough.

Well, seeming you are the one who brought carter into this, you look at the numbers and you do the math.

Here is one for tax revenue, job growth under carter 3.1, under reagan, 2.1, In fact, if it would not have been for the 1.4 million government employees added during the Reagan years -- 183,000 of them federal employees -- his job creating performance would have been worse.

what you are quoting is pretty unfair.  If you build up defense you will spend.

And if you give a 1.8 trillion dollar tax cut to the wealthy, you will lose revenue. The "trickle down" effect never happened, there was no revenue increase, what part of the numbers do you not understand? A tax increase of 98 billion dollars,  an increase in the public debt , of some $3 trillion dollars, where do see this great revenue?


you said 80 hour week to survive.. what you point out is that if you want to be greedy and have a lot of toys you end up working more... not the same thing.

If you change labor laws so working people lose money, you have to work more to make the same amount of money to survive , what is so greedy about that? Consumer spending spins the wheels of the economic train, if you take money away from the consumer, you shoot yourself in the foot.

education... I did not say going to school was bad... I said our socialist worthless public schools

Now, the pubic school sysytem, a whole different ballgame to which Reagan actually had some good ideas. Although I do not think the states have to go it alone, the money should not be spent on more government, but back into the schools.


private schools and career collage are good.

The last time I looked, the pell grant was not limited to public schools. And you do not receive money if you fail classes. And our state colleges are pretty good, I do not think they are worthless at all.


pell grants may work for some rare individuals

Pell grants work for alot of people, I believe Rip may have actually used a pell grant(but do not quote me, but I know he champions the grant, or at least shows you anyone can get an education and better themselves)

but for a lot of welfare recipeients they would be better off with a year of beauty school or a welding class or truck driving course.

Or an accounting class, or a tech class, or a computer programming class, etc. All those within reach with a pell grant, including what you mentioned above.

[lazs2]

ok sixpense I guess you will evade the subject forever so.. bluntly... what was the revenue for taxes for Regan years and for the adminestration berfore him?

How do you figure we have to work more to survive?   I didn't have color tv and cable in 70.   I didn't have a computer or an internet connection or a dishwasher or a car that got 30 mpg and didn't need a tuneup for 100,000 miles and I had a 3 year old car that needed to be tuned up every trip and lubed... You know hit all the grease fittings every 2,000 miles..  My house was a flat top 3 (really more like two) bedroom with one bath and no central heat or a/c and it was a total of about 1100 square feet.  

My work car was usually some wreck or junker that was a $50 or $100 dollar work car.   I had a wife and one child and my wife didn't work.

Some had wifes that worked and they had two new cars and big houses and big TVs pools or pool tables even a slot machine maybe..  

Women didn't make much in the work place so most didn't... they stayed home and raised the kids.

I agree that a technical school is a good thing to get people on the right track... public schools suck tho and are pretty much a waste of time... most will fail tho no matter what you give them... sometimes... simply because you do give them so much.

What I buy with my money now is much more than I could buy with it back in the 70's or 80's.   If we could build 2 bedroom on bath homes of 1100 square feet with no frills... they would be affordable but... todays citizens wouldn't live in em.   You can buy a car now that is brand new for $9,000 and comes with a 10 year warranty and you never have to do a thing to it... in fact... batteries and tires don't cost any more than they did in the 80's   The payments are less than the payments on a low end car in the 80's all things considered...

we do less work for what we get paid too..  most people today don't have a clue as to what hard work is.  It is easier now than any time in history.

lazs

[lazs2]

six... I guess I am as guilty and as gullible as you are... you point to sites that claim that Regan gutted the tresury and this and that deficit.. and I go to sites that say that Regan cut taxes and that the cutting of taxes increased revenue....

Those appear to be opinions... neither side seems to be willing or able to provide the actual numbers to back their claims up in the search's I have done.

lazs