Author Topic: P38 Help  (Read 904 times)

Offline dedalos

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P38 Help
« on: April 26, 2004, 08:59:36 AM »
k, splain this.  I in p38 going fast.  Spit IV I think also going fast  at 12 o'clock.  I puss the nose down to gain a little more speed, spt daes the same but has a little bit of alt.  Tracers go by (to me thet means the spit is not turning yet).  After the merge, I pull up and go into a 2k/m clime.  Look back and the spit has reversed at D600 and firing, but falling back.  Since the spit is falling behind a make my clime a little stiper trying to loop over and fall on him.  As I reach the top of the loop, the spit is at D1.1 trying to clime.  Drop flaps, rewady to flip over, I look back and the spit is at D600 shreading my plane with 20s.

The question is, what did I do wrong?  I thought a fast 38 can out perform a slow spit.  It had to be slower after the reverse, no?
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Shane

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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2004, 10:49:54 AM »
Did you film? This may have been a lag/connex issue on one of your ends in that the spit was always d600 behind you, but at a specific time you checked, lag made it appear further behind and when you looked away to complete your manuever, the server updated the spit back to d600.

This is about the only way i could see this happening based on how you described it.
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Offline dedalos

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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2004, 12:49:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane
Did you film? This may have been a lag/connex issue on one of your ends in that the spit was always d600 behind you, but at a specific time you checked, lag made it appear further behind and when you looked away to complete your manuever, the server updated the spit back to d600.

This is about the only way i could see this happening based on how you described it.


The description is not very good.  I don;t think it is lag cause we were both climing for a while, after the spit pulled the 180 with no apparent los of speed.  I think he was able to close in on me.  Add to that that I have never been able to dog fight in a 38, I think I did something wrong.  Maybe I should have gone straight up, istead of the slow clime?
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2004, 02:40:16 PM »
Questions ..

Was he pulling lead turn on you ?

If so, did you zoom up and into his lead turn ?

If the above 2 are yes, and he had more E in his pocket, he will catch you and rip you to shreds.

When merging with a Spit, you want to look behind you right away and see what he did and adjust accordingly.

If I think that a Spit has more E than me on the merge, I will always go opposite of his move ... if he goes up, then I go nose down ... if he goes left ... I go right ... etc.

If I have more E than the Spit (in most co-alt or close-alt situations, if I am over 425 mph I usually have more E), then I will zoom on him and only hope that he tries to follow.

I don't know how you fly, but if you are using Combat Trim on the P-38, I would strongly suggest that you don't.

Manually trimming the P-38 really allows you to take advantage of all the speed and E that that plane has to offer. Some are successful using Combat Trim ... I am not one of them.

I have elevator trim and flaps mapped to a 4-way on my HOTAS stick, and I am currently obtaining quite the calous on my thumb, because I am constantly trimming the P-38 when in battle.
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Offline Ecliptik

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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2004, 02:58:17 PM »
Sounds like you were in a shallow climb, with the spit falling to D1.1, but you underestimated the Spit's energy and pulled too early and too fast into a loop, at the top of which you were caught by the Spit, who was hanging on his prop.

Should have went level and extended a little further before reversing, or, if you had sufficient energy when you started that loop, should have trimmed level elevator and held vertical as long as you could or until you watched the spit begin to nose over.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 09:40:26 AM by Ecliptik »

Offline dedalos

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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2004, 03:02:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Questions ..

Was he pulling lead turn on you ?

If so, did you zoom up and into his lead turn ?

If the above 2 are yes, and he had more E in his pocket, he will catch you and rip you to shreds.

When merging with a Spit, you want to look behind you right away and see what he did and adjust accordingly.

If I think that a Spit has more E than me on the merge, I will always go opposite of his move ... if he goes up, then I go nose down ... if he goes left ... I go right ... etc.

If I have more E than the Spit (in most co-alt or close-alt situations, if I am over 425 mph I usually have more E), then I will zoom on him and only hope that he tries to follow.

I don't know how you fly, but if you are using Combat Trim on the P-38, I would strongly suggest that you don't.

Manually trimming the P-38 really allows you to take advantage of all the speed and E that that plane has to offer. Some are successful using Combat Trim ... I am not one of them.

I have elevator trim and flaps mapped to a 4-way on my HOTAS stick, and I am currently obtaining quite the calous on my thumb, because I am constantly trimming the P-38 when in battle.


Hey Slap :aok .  I saw tracers going over my head so I assumed he was going head on.  When I saw him behind me and gaining on him, I started a 2 or 3K/m clime.  He did not start gaining on me until I was at the top of the loop.  And he gained really fast.  In any case.  I will keep trying.  38s hate me though.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Shane

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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2004, 03:57:04 PM »
well, what i focused on was the d600 then fall back to 1.1k then close to d600 again situation.


however, taking a look again at the way you further described it, it's easy enough to do what the spit did. i do it all the time in the DA.

as you merged, the spit made his lead turn (probably fired a burst early out) early, hence you seeing him 600 back as you passed. your initial speed allowed you to go into that shallow climb and increase to 1.1k.

the spit is no slouch in either acceleration or climb.  as you went into the steeper climb to do your wingover, the spit was able to cut into your arc and gain to that d600 again.

in all probability, the spit would have been approaching his own stalling point (which is why he probably sprayed at d600) and if you had held your vertical a little longer, you might have been able to drop back down on his flopping spit for the kill.

this is what happens to me in the DA when the guy blows thru the merge, instead of a hard g lead turn, i ease off it a bit and go into a high yo-yo. when i make my 180, i'm diving back down to gain the speed back that i lost, and as teh guy goes into the zoom, i stay level a bit closing then cut up into his turn radius.

i'll often be near stalling when the guy noses back down. this is where my experience kicks in. i'll very often avoid his shot as he drops back down (as he'll be slow and wobbly himself, making it even harder to get guns on me) and when he passes me, i roll back down onto his 6 and if he tries anything other than continuing a diveout, i'll more than likely cut into his turn again and pop him.

if you want we can go to the DA and i'll show you exactly how it's done and what you can do on your part.
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline dedalos

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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2004, 04:05:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane
well, what i focused on was the d600 then fall back to 1.1k then close to d600 again situation.


however, taking a look again at the way you further described it, it's easy enough to do what the spit did. i do it all the time in the DA.

as you merged, the spit made his lead turn (probably fired a burst early out) early, hence you seeing him 600 back as you passed. your initial speed allowed you to go into that shallow climb and increase to 1.1k.

the spit is no slouch in either acceleration or climb.  as you went into the steeper climb to do your wingover, the spit was able to cut into your arc and gain to that d600 again.

in all probability, the spit would have been approaching his own stalling point (which is why he probably sprayed at d600) and if you had held your vertical a little longer, you might have been able to drop back down on his flopping spit for the kill.

this is what happens to me in the DA when the guy blows thru the merge, instead of a hard g lead turn, i ease off it a bit and go into a high yo-yo. when i make my 180, i'm diving back down to gain the speed back that i lost, and as teh guy goes into the zoom, i stay level a bit closing then cut up into his turn radius.

i'll often be near stalling when the guy noses back down. this is where my experience kicks in. i'll very often avoid his shot as he drops back down (as he'll be slow and wobbly himself, making it even harder to get guns on me) and when he passes me, i roll back down onto his 6 and if he tries anything other than continuing a diveout, i'll more than likely cut into his turn again and pop him.

if you want we can go to the DA and i'll show you exactly how it's done and what you can do on your part.


I will look you up.  I had more success dogfighting B26s than P38s, lol.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Shane

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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2004, 04:13:55 PM »
if you don't see me in the MA, try the CT.
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2004, 04:42:26 PM »
dedalos ... make sure you have film rolling. I have seen Shane at work. He is a great teacher and the film will be invaluable.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2004, 03:23:41 AM »
Next time let the stall bring your nose down from the vertical climb instead of doing a loop over the top.  You extend the vertical climb this way with the usual result of the Spitfire's belly showing to you as your nose comes down for a perfect shot.


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Offline senna

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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2004, 03:35:49 AM »
Situation like that, I just kick the rudders at around 120 mph as I enter into the stall zone. This will swing the p-38 around at just under stall speed to zero mph and put you offset to the attacker when he is pass stall speed. Your now pointing down and hes pointed up and you can begin to maneuver as you increase speed downwards.

Around 120-100 something like that. You must be pointing near straight up and at least past 60 % angle to horizon.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2004, 03:47:30 AM by senna »

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2004, 04:30:44 AM »
You did nothing wrong dedalos. It's the 600yard shots that connect that are wrong.

 Or rather, if you've failed to take into account what happens typically in AH then that's a mistake I'd say.

 The further the range of criticial gunnery, the larger the margin of E that should be saved, and the easier it is for the slower planes to just go gung-ho and start spraying.

Offline dedalos

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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2004, 10:41:18 AM »
Thank you guys.  Here is more evidence that P38s have something against me.  (Not a whine, just a funny story).

I was in a LA7 the other day and arived at a field where our GVs where getting hit by niks, ju87s, 110, etc.  As soon as get there I get the stuka and the nik in one pass. (I don;t think they knew I was there).  The 110 tried to get away but did not get far.  So, now I have 3 kills in 30 secs and I start to think to my self what a great pilot I am (lol). Then here it comes, a 38 takes off.  Low and slow and away from the base ack.  I have about 5k on him and I am fast already, so I go in.  Fly over him as if I was going to dive to see if he puls up.  He does not so I pull up and go over the top (Now I have 7 or 8k on him) and dive straight down.  He pulls straight up and I know the HO is comming so I breack left.  Two dings and my tail is off.  Look back he is d800. lol

There is something about that plane that gets me killed when in it or close to it.  I think I am afraid of them now, lol
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline AKFokerFoder+

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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2004, 06:40:53 PM »
The P38 in the hands of a good stick is a dreadful thing to have to face.

I suppose that could be said for any plane.  

The only advantage of fighting against a P38 is that it is a very large target.