Author Topic: An considered analysis of AH. By an Ultra Dweeb.  (Read 4081 times)

Offline Eagler

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An considered analysis of AH. By an Ultra Dweeb.
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2000, 09:14:00 AM »
Thank You Siskel & Ebert  

Good post, great ideas.

thanks for taking the time

stick around, it'll only get better

<S>
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Offline Fury

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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2000, 09:53:00 AM »
I think the vast majority of the community is good.  There are always the vocal minority that give people a bad taste.

I must add that I .squelch 1 as soon as I enter the arena.  So the only squeaking and cursing I see are on the boards and not in the game.  It is much more enjoyable to fly that way.  I really don't need to see anything on channel 1 -- good or bad.

I do all my talking directly to the player, not on channel 1.  And, if someone on the green channel needs help (newbie), I try to help as much as I can.

Fury

Ice

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An considered analysis of AH. By an Ultra Dweeb.
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2000, 10:02:00 AM »
Heya Griz!

I agree as long as I'm the one with the button

Just kidding...AWDOS was a great place...wouldn't mind seeing less of the the bad apples and an influx of new players, who will STAY.

Give me a shout when ya get online...if ya fly with westy, guess you'll be the enemy

Ltr

Ice

Offline Tac

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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2000, 10:28:00 AM »
This guy deserves a 1 month free trial =)

<S>!

I agree with all of it, I particularly hope the buff and photon torpedo comments get thru to HTC, these are desperately needed changes.

Now if they just turned off icons when below 1.0 range and made icons visible only at 3.0 range we would have a much different and enjoyable game. Wow, just think about it, no more getting CHOG-Plinked at 1.2d by Torque! What a DREAM! *Grin*

Offline iculus

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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2000, 11:29:00 AM »
Good List!  Well done.  I agree with very much of what you said, especially regarding sportsmanship.  One bone of contention is regarding bomber accuracy.  Bomber accuracy needs to be a little better than real life for playability reasons.  You simply do not see bomber raids with historical numbers in these online flight sims.  If buffs aren't effective by themselves or in flights of two or three, no one would fly them.

I'm certainly no proponent of bombers hitting acks from 30k.  I'm a CO of a heavy bomber squadron that hits exclusively strategic targets.  We fly close to an hour to get to the target.  It would be a great disappointment to get there and miss.  

<S> IC

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2000, 11:37:00 AM »
Sorry Buzzbait... while I admire the skill exercised in writing the above post, I have to call roadkill.

The call is made on the basis of several observations.  Mostly, these arguments have all surfaced time and again in some form or another and will continue to do so.  It seems you have been lurking for some time now because you present information in a manner that indicates that you have been either reading.. or been a part of those discussions.

The N1K and Corsair e-retention comment was very curious.  Such a well-informed post with this comment... despite the fact that you've "never flown either".  Hmmmmmmm.

I get the feeling you posted a set of valid discussions that have raged on this board for quite some time.  You are yet another vet player of this game with yet another alias.  I'm sure you've read about that fad too.

Sorry, but I can't get all excited about any post like this that is not based on 100% honesty.  I get the feeling you are hovering somewhere around 40% on that factor.

BTW.. you make some valid points.  But you also spew diatribe at times.  The "30mm gatling guns in the turrets" and comments about the N1k and F4u flight model reflect this.  Also, you argue for realism but comment on the lack of <S> you see in the arena.  Quite the paradox.  Whereas chivalry was demonstrated in several stories in WW1 and 2... those stories comprise a small percentage of the war.  A very small percentage.

People seem to want to play a war game where everything is totally realistic and every likes each other.  The two never shall meet.  Sorry, but if you even pretend to pursue that... your argument is flawed from the start.

Also, you offer no real solutions to problems.  You present issues and "solutions" that basically mean "do it they way they did in WW2".  You don't offer any real explanation of how to simulate it in a game.  You see, that is what this is.. both a simulation and a game.  HTC cannot make the simulation and assume everyone will treat things historically.  They may have thought that at one time (long before HTC) but I'm sure that awakening was near instant.

Look at the construct of the game and offer real solution within those limits.  What subtle changes can be made to help them move towards your vision of how an MA should be?  Especially how an MA with zero command structure should be?  Just how do you make it anywhere near realistic?

There is a time and place for most of the stuff you described.  Extensive scenarios would be it.  The scenario people are new to it and haven't really scratched the surface of its capabilities yet.  With a few changes to control functions, HTC could give them the tools to do the aboved mentioned things in a psuedo-realistic environment.  That is the only way it can be done.

WW2 wasn't about the capture of land in a 10vs10 arial engagement. It was not about a group of 4 bombers laying waste to an entire area.  Any attempt to make a game represent that will be unrealistc.  Those are the types of limits HTC has to work with.  Those are the types of limits you need to consider when making suggestions for improvement.

AKDejaVu


Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2000, 11:39:00 AM »
Overall I think I agree with your points.  

Its a shame that a few loudmouths can make the community as a whole look bad. I suggest squelching them or just channel 1 in particular.

Bombers. I agree with your points, but I also realize that the bomb accuracy and defensive gunnery is a concession to playability. Otherwise, we wouldn't ever see bombers in the game.

As too fighter versus fighter accuracy in real life in comparison to the game, lets not forget one thing.   Most of the players you meet in the arena, have a  higher number of "shots fired in anger" than the combined total of the entire 56th Fighter Group at the height of its skill. And I won't even get into Icons, and such.

Nice post Buzzbait, and I hope you stick with it.

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Offline LePaul

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« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2000, 11:59:00 AM »
Skuzzy!

Pardon me while I applaud what you wrote

<clap clap clap>

I love flying the bombers and goons.  Since they are slower and less glamorous aircraft than the fighters, I am glad some concessions were made in regards to bomber accuracy.

Teammates are quick to yell they need hangars killed or acks destroyed and we bomber pilots go for it, slowly climb to altitude, expose ourselves to ACK and enemy fighters.  More often than not, we do not make it to the target for a variety of reasons...couldnt clear mountains, got gang banged by fighters, damaged, etc.  Seldom do I get escort to the hot spots ("Use your gun stations" they yell...as I am torn up while in the bomb sight view...and these same people are miffed when they hear the hangars are still up since you failed to hit targets).

And how many of us have driven the goon...been told an area needs troops, you fly for 20-30 minutes to get the goon there, and everything is up.  Escort? Ha!  So, you are torn up either by base AAAs or ememy fighter.  All because you tried to be a nice guy and bring troops to a requested spot.

While there are days when teamwork is fabulous on the various teams, this is not always the case.  I think too many folks under value their bomber and goon drivers.  So...for what its worth, for all the hell the bomber guys go through to GET to target, its at least comforting [for me] to know that when I drop on the crosshairs, whatever was under them will die.

Lastly, this is an annoying bug that's been around for a while...while in the Lncaster, if a guy is appraoching my tail gun, I can fire away, then stop.  If I try to resume firing, it will not.  Plenty of ammo and no damage,  Just the gun refuses to work.  And since the Lancaster has very few gun positions to defend its low 6, its very frustrating to watch yourself get torn up.  Makes one regret spending 25 minutes to get the big beast to altitude.

Great post, Skuuzy, and others.

Paul

Offline Fariz

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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2000, 12:39:00 PM »
Nice first post, Buzz.

Welcome to HELL!  

Offline hblair

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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2000, 01:40:00 PM »
Buzzbait, What is your handle in the game??

Your score doesn't check out.

No way this guy is a two-weeker.

Something seems more than a little fishy here.

 

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2000, 02:05:00 PM »
LOL! Hblair

The comment about F4U-1C and Niki burning no E, kinda made me suspicious too  

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Offline easymo

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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2000, 02:08:00 PM »
 Well for the " I want to screw up and get sprayed over, and over, without paying for it" crowd. There is always WB.

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2000, 02:30:00 PM »
Salute all and thanks for your replies

First of all to AK DejaVu:  Whether you choose to believe it or not, I am not a veteran flyer.  Yes I read the board and noted the discussions about the C-Hog, N1k2 etc.  I don`t know about you, but I make a point of  informing myself before I go into a new Sim.  I read every single post I could in the technical discussions to garner info re. how to fly aircraft correctly and successfully.  And regarding knowing about the Corsair and N1k2`s energy retaining abilities:  I flew a Typhoon quite a bit, and had plenty of opportunity to watch after a Headon, a N1K2 turn on a dime and come right after me with barely a loss in speed.  Going high into an immelman or loop after that, you better have some speed or they will be toasting your butt.  And I also have been on the tail of a C-Hog many a time with superior `E` to start, and tried to follow them through their evasions only to burn my energy and see them zipping along with nary a pause.  (Even in one of those damn canyons where they have very little room to maneuver, they can give you fits)  As far as your comment that :  `you never flew a N1K2 or Corsair`, I flew them several times offline and in H2H.  Enough to form a pretty good opinion.  It just so happens that the P51d, P-47 and Typhoon are my favourite planes.  I didn`t fly the P-47 much because the models offered are the ground attack versions.  The early Razorback models D4 through D-23 with water injection and paddle blade prop were the hot setup as they didn`t have all the Jabo required reinforcing etc. on them to weigh them down and had better wing loading.    Bob Johnson and Gabby scored most of their kills on these models.    (By the way, the Pratt and Whitney in the P-47 was the most easily hotrodded engine around in WWII, and many US mechanics souped up their pilot`s machines.  I believe Johnson had his set up to take 72 lbs manifold pressure)  So I ended up in the `Stang and Typhoon.
Second :  Why don`t you go back and re-read my post again.  You accuse me of offering `…no real solutions.`    Where does that come from?  Creating Strongpoints is no big deal.  Just replace the existing vehicle bases with them.  Add a few more light weapons and the battery of artillery.  And creating a Landing craft is unrealistic?  I don`t think so.  Not if they can put together a PT boat or  a CV.  There is already another post out there pointing out that the ground game is dead with the existing island setup.  And adjusting the overall accuracy of air to air gunnery is a very simple matter.  Just multiply the existing numbers by a percentile.  Bingo, done.  Same with bomber durability and accuracy.  The programs are already in place, they just need to be tweaked.
I`d say you don`t really have a handle on the issues I raised and are just responding based on a bit of paranoia about people taking aliases.

To Scuzzy and the other Bomber guys :  I appreciate your concern.  I know what you guys go through to get your big birds up there and on target.  And yes you deserve more of an escort than you usually get.  I normally love to fly escort in a P-51 or 47.  Up at 25,000 ft they really start to motor.  You get some great chances to kill the interceptors when they try to climb up after the bombers.  Unfortunately with the limited tryout period, I was concentrating more on learning the fighter vs fighter combat and practicing ground attack.
But I think you might be surprised by how the game developed with my suggested changes.  I`ll give you an example :

In RED BARON, the original game had no bombers or recons in Multiplayer.  Online was generally one big furball.  But some many creative souls found out how to create new flyable aircraft shapes, how to modify the FM`s to produce bomber like characteristics, learned how to create rear firing guns, and presto chango, we had bombers and recons.  Now prior to this any aircraft could bomb, and the fastest fighters could zip in and take out a target.  Now with these less maneuverable, slower, but more durable bombers, different tactics had to be created.  Systems developed based on the concept of the `High` escort and `Low` escort, (Close escort and Roving for you WWII boys)  with elaborate tactics for getting the bombers to target.   The bombers themselves adopted self-defence tactics, Lufbery circles, crisscrossing to provide targets for squadmates, etc.  Attacking forces flew recons of targets prior to the arrival of the bomber group to determine defences and the best approach.  In return, the CAP forces developed their own tactics.  They divided into Fast fighters tasked with tying up and engaging escorts and Sturmgruppe`s to attack the bombers.  Different aircraft were used in the different roles.  The complexity and energy required to produce a successful attack made the Sim far more interesting.  There is nothing more exciting than coming up to target, seeing the opposing forces maneuver for position, then experiencing the incredible intensity of the run in as all hell breaks loose and both teams fight like mad to achieve their goals.

I think if unescorted bombers found it impossible to get through, that the laws of evolution would dictate the adoption of escort tactics.  Everyone wants to win.  If one side is winning by escorting their bombers, then they other side would adopt the technique too.  In response you would see development of advanced CAP tactics.  Everyone would be forced to cooperate to achieve their goals.

I know if my Squad came online in AH we would use these tactics.  You would see us in formations of 3 B17`s or Lancasters, escorted by 4 or 5 long range fighters.  And we`d go anywhere we wanted on the map.  (assuming we`d learned how to fly the aircraft, lol, and we didn`t run into a pack of Mitsu`s or Citabrias)

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2000, 02:32:00 PM »
S! all

My handle is `Buzzbait`.  And you can read my scores, (and laugh) anytime.  Tour 11.

                   

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2000, 02:39:00 PM »
I still believe you to be full of it buzzbait.

You claim to read things here to be informed.. but never posted.  Hmmm

You claim experience with several flight sims but cleverly omit any experience with WB?  Hmmmmm

You show to be an avid WW2 flight enthusiast but you haven't tried this game in the last year and a half?  Hmmmm.

As for reading your post... I did.

 
Quote
Second : Why don`t you go back and re-read my post again. You accuse me of offering `…no real solutions.` Where does that come from? Creating Strongpoints is no big deal. Just replace the existing vehicle bases with them. Add a few more light weapons and the battery of artillery.

Yeah.. this is a great idea.  Ad more ack (ack and artillery has not been a problem for ground troops yet).  Because experienced players won't note where they are located and destroy them in the same manner they do with the ack at the fields.  Ack is not a threat to a panzer.  Adding more will do nothing to slow them down.

You really don't offer anything that enhances the realism of the game.  More fixed targets do not enhance realism.  The change must be made at the player level.. not the ai level.  Any addition of AI means just another thing you have to learn to game.

Try to get people to actually use organized defense.  Try to get people to do patrols knowing there is a good possibility that they will not see another aircraft.  Try to get people to fly as an organized team.  These are the first steps toward increasing realism.  And these things simply aren't going to occur day in and day out in the MA.  There is very little you can change that will deter from the fact that many people just want to show up and fight.

Like I said before.. if you really want more than that out of this game... participate in the scenarios.

AKDejaVu