Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?

[jigsaw]

Originally posted by Curval
Yea, stick it to the "red man".  California's economy is in the toilet through no fault of the Indians, but let's ignore any previous agreements and tax the heck out of them to solve a small part of the problem.

Sweet.

Points out "exactly" why I hate politicians. This whole issue was proposed and voted on a few years ago. Didn't pass. Now they're ramping it up again. They'll keep harping on it until it passes or they sneak it in the back door on some other proposition.

[lazs2]

jigs... I am for not taxing anyone but all the casinos are giving me is expense so I say... why should I have to pay for em?  let em pay their own way.   If they don't pay taxes I don' t see why I should have to.

sheesh.... you guys act like we are taxing an ancient holy right of the indians to build casinos.... there weren't even itallian mobsters around in the old west to run em back then!

lazs

[Chairboy]

How are they giving you expense?  If you clarified that, it might help me understand your point better.

[jigsaw]

Originally posted by lazs2
jigs... I am for not taxing anyone but all the casinos are giving me is expense so I say... why should I have to pay for em?  let em pay their own way.   If they don't pay taxes I don' t see why I should have to.

Laz, I'll 'splain a bit so maybe my point of view will make more sense and not sound so much like I'm pointlessly politician bashing...

First off... I was raised where "no" means "no." Not "try again in five minutes" or "yes, if you tie me up and tell everyone you made me." So right there, them bringing the issue up again sits wrong with me.

Secondly... going back to where we (the msg board) were talking about politicians sneaking stuff in...ever since the vote passed in CA to stop bilingual education and they brushed it under the rug just proves to me that whomever is in the big office doesn't really care what the voters want.

Lastly... having some native american ancestry, I do get a bit touchy on such topics.

If they're gonna do it anyway, they should just do it and stop trying to make it look like it was something the voters wanted.
Right now they're acting more like kids asking "Can I? Can I? Can I? Huh? Can I?" just to annoy everyone enough to pass it, then turn around and say "Well, you said I could." if it blows up.

[-MZ-]

There are two separate initiatives awaiting signature verification, so they do not have ballot numbers yet.  

Guess which one is sponsored by the Indian Tribes, and which one is sponsored by the card room and horse racing industry:


Tribal Gaming Compact Renegotiation. Non-Tribal Commercial Gambling Expansion. Revenues, Tax Exemptions. Initiative Constitutional Amendment and Statute.
Signatures Required: 598,105
Proponents: Louis J. Blanas and Lee Baca, c/o Barry Fadem (925) 283-0581

Authorizes Governor to renegotiate tribal-state compacts to require that tribes: Pay 25% of slot machine/gaming device revenues to government fund; comply with multiple state laws; accept state court jurisdiction. Unless all compacted tribes accept terms within 90 days, or if terms determined unlawful, authorizes 16 specified non-tribal racetracks and gambling establishments to operate 30,000 slot machines/gaming devices, paying 33% of revenues to fund public safety, regulatory, social programs. Provides exemption from future state/local tax increases. Limits new tribal gaming. Summary of estimate by Legislative Analyst and Director of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local governments: This measure would have the following major fiscal effect: Increased local government revenues of likely over $1 billion annually from new gambling revenues. The revenues would be used primarily for additional firefighting, police, and child protective services.



Tribal Gaming Compacts. Exclusive Gaming Rights. Contributions to State. Initiative Constitutional Amendment and Statute.
Signatures Required: 598,105
Proponent: Richard Milanovich, c/o Fredric D. Woocher (310) 576-1233 and Gene Raper (760) 778-7413

Requires Governor to offer renewable 99-year gaming compacts to federally recognized Indian tribes providing: exclusive gaming rights on Indian land; no limits on number of machines, facilities, types of games; contribution to state fund of portion of net tribal gaming income, based on prevailing state corporate tax rate; off-reservation environmental impact reports, public notice/comment opportunities before significant expansion or construction of gaming facilities. Contributions are in lieu of any other fees, taxes or levies. Contributions terminate if state permits non-tribal casino-type gaming. Summary of estimate by Legislative Analyst and Director of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local governments: This measure would have the following major fiscal effect: Increased state gaming revenues - potentially several hundreds of millions of dollars annually. These revenues could increase significantly over time.

[Sixpence]

Wait a minute, if it's you being taxed all hell breaks loose and the liberals are taking over the world, but the indians, tax the hell out them!! You can't tax them because then they won't have incentive to make millions with their casinos, that laffer curve thing.

[Sikboy]

To be fair, we didn't know that the land was suitable for Casinos when we gave it to the Indians. I think the only right thing to do would be to take the land, and the Casinos, and find someplace else for the Indians.

-Sik

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Batz
They could alaways set up tolls on the roads going into and out of the reservations.

Winner!

[lazs2]

What infrastructure?  we are talking police , fire, roads and all sorts of expenses... you don't jam hundreds of thousands of people into an area and not put a strain on the infrastucture...

To be fair.. the indians have in a lot of cases paid for some infrastructure by donation... money for fire trucks and road repairs... that sort of thing.   Things like wastewater and water treatment  may or may not get funded.

jigs  Look... Indian gaming is not the same this even this year as it was last year... it has about doubled.   This is a frigging vice ... We are talking about taxing a huge industry.

like I said... I don't want anyone to be taxed but if they  make a friggin casino tax exempt ... a huge industry... then why should I pay taxes?   If taxing a vice lowers my taxes... well... bet your butt I want them scumbags taxed... be it  casinos, potato houses or even opium dens.    

Thing is.. they will buckle under without a qualm.   No war no (outwardly) hard feelings... calling whitey a devil won't be good for bussiness.   If by some monstrously strange turn of events they wqanted to fight it out on legal grounds....  They are landllocked and another nation... We could make sure that  no more Americans visited than do cuba.

It's a vice guys... a huge industry... tax them before you tax me.  They can, and should pay before I do.

lazs

[lazs2]

sixpense... the laffer curve applies..  they are at zero  on the scale... if we get one red cent (can I say one red cent here?)  then we are ahead.   If they shut down they are no longer a burden on the infrastructure so we are ahead...   Win /win

Of course...There is a point where we could maximize money fleeced out of em.   Just as the government fleeces you and I.

In the end... they can and should pay more and before me.   They create nothing except some low paying jobs and contribute nothing.  they offer no service but fuel hardship.   Even drugs arguably give more reward for the families they destroy.

We shouldn't be argueing about wether this industry should pay taxes like everyone else but on how much they should pay...  Should they pay more like other vices?  for instande booze and ciggarretes have a very high tax on em as do casinos elswhere.   Do we give em a tax break because they are helping giving to a race of people?  welll... all industries get a tax break for charity... so should they.

lazs

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Gray Davis screwed us out of Indian tax money as well???? That guy sucked!!

touch watermelon for us. We screwed the Indians over and stuck them there and said"there, you got your own land, do with it as you want," and laughed because the land was trash. Seems to me they turned the tide on us and we're pissed off as hell. Let them keep their money. They've earned it.

[Furious]

If California decides that it is ok to tax an industry (casinos), then why not make that industry legal?

Free market.

[jigsaw]

Originally posted by lazs2
jigs  Look... Indian gaming is not the same this even this year as it was last year... it has about doubled.   This is a frigging vice ... We are talking about taxing a huge industry.

Ok, I'll admit to not having seen any actual numbers since the last time it came up for vote. Without my doing due diligence and research to have an in depth discussion, I'll concede that you're probably more up on the topic than me and leave it be.

Originally posted by lazs2
if we get one red cent (can I say one red cent here?)

Nope. Sorry. Gonna have to scalp ya for that one.

[storch]

The Miccosuki tribe in Hollywood Fl, is building a Hard Rock Cafe Hotel and Casino that rivals the one at Universal Orlando.  You would not believe this structure.  It is all paid for by the proceeds from bingo!!! as this will be the first Casino for the tribe in Hollywood.  Now our Indians ar superior to you guy's indians in that the Seminoles were never defeated by the US Gov't.  I believe they never signed any treaties with the Feds.  The State of Fl. tried to muscle in on the other Casino that they have near Coopertown and the got their arses handed to them.  WTG 'Noles.  I have heard (unsubstantiated due to lack of interest on my part) that each tribal family is currently receiving $40,000.00 per month from the tribe council (they are a true communal society)  they have their own police and fire protection and judicial system.  I believe that they deserve their money and that the Gov't should geep their greasy fingers outta the Indian tills.

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by lazs2

sixpense... the laffer curve applies..  they are at zero  on the scale

Well, you know my thoughts on the laffer scale, you show me a millonaire who doesn't want to make another million because of taxes, i'll show you a shmuck. Even if it is 50%, do you think someone will not want to make 500,000? And if he doesn't, there will be plenty behind him that will gladly do it. We are capitalists, taxes will not stop us. That's not an excuse to raise taxes, i'm just making a point.

if we get one red cent (can I say one red cent here?)

Ahh, but we do, the winnings are taxed. So here is where you get creative. Instead of taking the liberal approach and taxing them, require them to make a % of their intake go towards winnings, like the lottery. The winnings are taxed, and the people get money to spend.