N1K whine!

[Phantom4]

One persons view on why an F4U-1C is perked and an N1K2 isn't

Phantom4 in FM2 against N1k2 and against F4U-1C
                                                     
tour 50     5/1        0/2
tour 49     25/8      2/4
tour 48     23/14    2/5
tour 47     27/8      1/2
tour 46     13/6      1/5
tour 45     22/10    1/2
tour 44     10/6      1/6
tour 43     54/23    8/14

I would much rather fight N1K2's than F4u-1c

[beet1e]

Morph - we're perhaps both guilty of wandering off topic a little - and I have had no wine today! The discussion about .50 cals does not belong in a thread about N1Ks, but no matter. Yes indeed, I've had pings at 1000/1100 yards - me in a F6F and the bogie in a 109. I got a clean kill! Total BS if you ask me.

When I said about getting back on topic I was referring to the original post by Bulz about N1Ks...

Originally posted by Bulz
at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM!  1 hit I'm dead..  

...and that's BS too - the fact that those shots are possible.

So then my observations about AH2 were simply to reassure Bulz that (IMO) the gunnery model is moving in the right direction with AH2.

Set the cross hairs on the mark... Let the trigger rip, wiggle the rudder a bit back and forth and YEAH BABY we're spraying with the best of em!!!

I tried all that in AH2. Didn't get me any hits.

Do me a favour, Morph. I do believe you have AH2 set up. Could you try the N1k 800yd spray test in there and report back? Not wanting to have a pissing contest; just interested in someone else's findings.

[Phantom4]

Hey - I ain't saying that marine snipers aren't good are that they can't get kills at ranges greater than a mile.  I am an ex-marine and have fired both the M60 and the M2.  The .50 is an incredible long range weapon and has plenty energy to do serious damage at 1500 and even 2000 yrds.  It is however much easier to hit stationary (or slow moving) targets from a fixed ground mounted tripod than a fast moving target from a maneuvering aircraft with somewhat flexible wings.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Phantom4-Mag33
One persons view on why an F4U-1C is perked and an N1K2 isn't

Phantom4 in FM2 against N1k2 and against F4U-1C
                                                     
tour 50     5/1        0/2
tour 49     25/8      2/4
tour 48     23/14    2/5
tour 47     27/8      1/2
tour 46     13/6      1/5
tour 45     22/10    1/2
tour 44     10/6      1/6
tour 43     54/23    8/14

I would much rather fight N1K2's than F4u-1c

So you are saying that the F4U1C out turns N1Ks? Please:rolleyes:

FM2 is one of the most ubber little turn fighters in the game. Add to that massive furballs with NIKs clutting up the bunch its no suprise nor a big thing to kill a NIK. Not degrading your accomplishments Phantom mind you but what you are saying simply does not make sense to me.

You'd rather right a plane that turns better? The NIK? Than a plane that for the most part at a low energy state cant turn for squat?!?

Please think about that for a moment... I dont think you understand what you've just said. Big deal its got guns that kill anything it hits. What good are they if they can't get aimed at you? The Niks guns are much more easily manuvered on to you than an CHOG in a turn fight... And you cannot argue that last point. I mean a turn fight... Not some silly one maybe 2 high energy turns that any plane in the game can do.

Do me a favour, Morph. I do believe you have AH2 set up. Could you try the N1k 800yd spray test in there and report back? Not wanting to have a pissing contest; just interested in someone else's findings.

I have Ah2 set up yes. I would think the test would be much better if you and I get in there and perform it together if you really want to find out what the gunnery is like. I've been curious as to how it compars to AH1 myself. Call me out in the MA anytime you want. I am in there right now as a matter of fact. I find AH2 very enjoyable because there are many things that are new and need to be learned.

[Phantom4]

No - just showing that I can maintain a much higher kill to death ratio against nikis(2.33) than against chogs(.5).   As I said, it is just one mans perspective.   A chog is not a turn fighter but flying chogs and keeping them fast, using decent B n Z tactics, it is a much superior fighter to the niki.  Hey Nikis will turn try and turn fight with an FM2 - chogs don't they just B n Z you to death.  On the other hand if you can get some fool in a chog to try and turn with ya, Well that is another story.

[bj229r]

Chog takes like day and a half to reach 15k...niki raises wheels and starts dogfiting. (DONT see too many guys uppin hog at capped base--the one plane that often manages to bust a up a good vulch is niki) Hog has to up a sector or 2 back, else get caught by niki dwweb on climbout---hard to use it to defend cv as it grabs so fediddleing slow---only can kill niki if it has setup to b and z it---if its coalt with niki, its helpless (unless niki is new guy, like many are)

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MoRphEuS
You'd rather right a plane that turns better? The NIK? Than a plane that for the most part at a low energy state cant turn for squat?!?

If I'm in a Spit V, I'd prefer to face a N1K any day of the week rather than an F4U-1C.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
If I'm in a Spit V, I'd prefer to face a N1K any day of the week rather than an F4U-1C.

-- Todd/Leviathn

In a turn fight????? Common Levi. I dont know what point you are trying to make but you are going about it in the wrong way...

You cant sit there and honestly tell me that in a turn fight as I stated and as you even quoted me on that a Chog is more deadly than a NIK in a low energy turn fight... I dont care how much flying time you have. Thats a fact. The Nik will chew the CHog up in a fight such as that and give the spitV a far better fight than the CHOG ever posibly could...

[Roscoroo]

Looks in and tosses my worthless 2 cents in ..........

Ive fought alot of niki's with a chog ... And yes I get the 1st and some of the time the 2nd turn on the niki .. but after that if the chogs E drops which it ussually does it then becomes food for the niki . the chog can ussually out run the niki with e managment after the 1st turn but any more then that the niki will catch it .
The biggest mistake is getting down on the deck w/ the niki.

if i see a niki and a6m together I always go after the niki 1st .

one more quick note about the Chog is with its 20mm cannons Ive gotten a fair amount of kills as far out as 1200 no other plane in the game besides the 50cals in the buffs have that kinda range.


Now complaints about Fester ... I myself have fought against him enough over the years now that I can say he has never beaten me by the how the hell did he do that wonder cheat .
But he does "Game the game"

Befor the rest of you guys accuse someone its best to film it 1st and then review it (99.9% of the time you will see that they just beat you to the turn,miss judged there E, or have better gunnery skills)

[Montezuma]

Why is a Chog more deadly to a Spit V than a N1K2?  

The Spit V should beat either one in a duel type situation, the Chog will just die quicker than the N1K2.  

But in the MA, the N1K2 is more likely to give the Spit V the angles fight he wants.  The Chog will run away, come back and cherry pick, or go for the Head On.  Chogs are the best HO plane, the cannons are better than the N1k2s and it can survive hits the N1K2 can't.

Chog was getting something like 30%? of all the A2A kills in the arena before they perked it.

[SlapShot]

Hey Nikis will turn try and turn fight with an FM2 - chogs don't they just B n Z you to death.

I believe that this is the key to your stats against these 2 planes.

The N1K pilot "thinks" that he has a chance against your FM2 in a turn fight, while the CHog pilot knows it ain't gonna happen so he won't enter the turn fight.

If the N1K were to use the same BnZ tactics as the CHog has against you, those stats would show a whole different result, and conversly too.

[SlapShot]

Yes indeed, I've had pings at 1000/1100 yards - me in a F6F and the bogie in a 109. I got a clean kill! Total BS if you ask me.

Do you know for a fact that the 109 had not received previous structutal damage and all it needed was a little more to effect the kill ?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bulz
at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...and that's BS too - the fact that those shots are possible.

Maybe he jinked into a pure headshot killing the pilot and causing the instant "BOOM!" death.

The point is ... you never really know these facts when presented with these situtations. Detail is not fine enough at these distances to make a crediable assement and judgement.

[Zanth]

Wierd unexplainable (unrealistic) things do happen in the game from time to time.  I was in a panser and a Yak blew me up with a  low (sort of co-alt as it were)  and directly head-on shot.  No damage at all, just blew that tank right the heck up.

[Kweassa]

Why is a Chog more deadly to a Spit V than a N1K2?

The Spit V should beat either one in a duel type situation, the Chog will just die quicker than the N1K2.

But in the MA, the N1K2 is more likely to give the Spit V the angles fight he wants. The Chog will run away, come back and cherry pick, or go for the Head On. Chogs are the best HO plane, the cannons are better than the N1k2s and it can survive hits the N1K2 can't.

Chog was getting something like 30%? of all the A2A kills in the arena before they perked it.

 A little reference to that, from my base analysis as seen in the "NPA" suggestion thread...

Interestingly, in an attempt to justify my claims on the analysis of the F4U-1C, I took a quick check with AKDejavu's Fighter Stats:

...

In my analysis, the number of Spits and N1K2s remains constant - they are the "backbone" of the air power, equivalnet to the "everyday soldier" or the "grunt" concept. The people using Spit9s and N1K2s always use these planes, and they carry out the largest fights of most gruesome, high attrition level battles in the MA. Majority of these guys fight each other.

The F4U-1C - I claim that it has split roles into P-51D, La-7, Typhoon, and the F4U-1D, F6F-5, Seafire.

According to the stats:

Tour11
* Tour 11, marks the absolute peak of the F4U-1C, which has 23% of all the kills. Interstingly, up to this point, the Bf109G-10 carries a relatively high percentage of average 7~8% - equivalent of what the La-7 holds. Also, the combined percentage of the Spit9 and the N1K2 holds average of about 20%, too - with the N1K2 doing 11~12%, and the Spit9 doing 8~9%.

Tour14
* In Tour 14, the La-7 and the Fw190D-9 appears for the very first time, and immediately the usage of the two planes goes over 7%.

Tour18
* In Tour 18, four months after the excitement of the two planes have gone down, this is the first time that the "Big Four" phenomenon shows its face. And from since Tour18, the "monopoly" begins.

The percentage of the G-10 drops down to 4%, the D-9 about to 5%. The percetage of the La-7 is embedded at about 8%. From this day forward, the G-10 and the D-9 stays near 4~5%, and the La-7 near 8%.

* The tours between 20~25, is a period where the overall percentage of the N1K2, Spit9, La-7 and the P-51D holds tight at 40%. The main changes are between those four planes - the N1K2 simmers down, and the P-51D usage rises up. Spit9 stays constant near 9~10%, and the La-7 constant at about 8~9%.

* From Tour 29, the Typhoon rises to the 5th place, with about 5% average up to now. This, is the point where current style of gameplay is finally set. The monopoly of the four planes which achieve the 40% of the kills, plus the Typhoon in the 5th place, as the most used jabo plane of them all. With the "big FIVE", 45% of the kills are achieved.

......

My analysis is as follows:

1) The stats prior to Tour14 indicates the truth in the "substitute" aspect of the La-7-Bf109G-10. Before the La-7 was here, The F4U-1C was doing almost everything, with a large section of the people resorting to the N1K2s and the Spitfires. P-51Ds always remain constant at about 10%. Before Tour14, the skies were full of Chogs, Spits and N1K2s. The 10% of other people flew P-51Ds simular in the fashion now. On the low alt fights, the Bf109G-10 was doing what the La-7 was doing, but it wasn't as pronounced due to the vast numbers of Spitfires, N1K2s and F4U-1Cs.

2) Tour18, four months after the La-7 and the Fw190D-9, the Chog crowd begins to disappear. Parts of them move to form the new La-7 crowd. The "LW" crowd, from this point on, remains constant at 7~8% - two planes of the entire LW plane set, are the only planes that make up that 8% of total kills achieved. The Spit9-N1K2 crowd still remains constant.

The D-hog has a momentray surge in usage - no doubt that another part of the C-hog crowd, were in the F4U-1D as a substitute for their C-hog. This tendency, quickly dies off after another few months.

Slowly, between Tour18 and Tour29, part of the C-hog crowd are fully assimilated in the La-7s.

3) Tour29, marks the beginning of what is current. Typhoons are used en masse as suicidal jabos. Fuel porking and large scale jabo raids are visible. New crowds gather to AH.

The rise of F6F-5 hellcat is also visible - the preference for the carrier plane, has shifted from the C-hog to the F6F-5. The N1K2 crowd drops, while the La-7 crowd begins to rise even more.

4) By Tour35, the Spit and the P-51D crowd still stay constant. However, the relative difference between the N1K2 and the La-7 has reversed - now, the La-7 is doing 9~10% of the kills, and the N1K2, which previously was doing about 12~13%, drops down to about 7%.

This, is the point where people gave up on trying other planes to chase La-7s. N1K2 crowd, moves on to form the hordes of La-7s. This explains the relatively low skill levels of the La-7s - few tours back, they were all flying N1K2s!!

5) Tour38 - The Big Four remain big four, Typhoon is the undisputed jabo plane, with 5th place in kills. The LW crowd mostly just gives up on the Bf109G-10(drops down to 3%) , and moves to the Fw190D-9(rises to 4~5%). In my view, parts of the Bf109G-10 pilots gave it up, and moved to the La-7s or P-51Ds, and the Fw190D-9s.

6) Thus, the stats suggest that Spitfire9 and P-51D is always constant at 10%. Karnak once noted that the P-51D is over 10%, and this hasn't happened recently and it's a sad thing.

But he's wrong. The Spit9s and P-51Ds were always at 10%.

7) Large part of the former C-hog crowd, first moved to the N1K2, La-7 and the D-hog. The dedicated hog flyers were experimenting with the D-hog, and the average "dweeb" who flew F4U-1Cs because they were the best, moved to the planes they thought was next best - N1K2 and the La-7.

Then, the D-hog crowd dispersed, and went to the Typhoon. Former Chog crowd who tried out N1K2s, saw that it was too slow, especially against the new tendencies of super fast planes - P-51D, Fw190D-9, La-7.. so they moved to the La-7.

8) Average carrier pilots, now has no other option than the F6F-5, since the F4U-1D is a hard plane to manage.

Thus, as a result, the former C-hog crowd, is now scattered into the La-7 and the Typhoon, and the for carrier missions F6F-5 and the Seafire. La-7 + Typhoon + Seafire + F6F-5 = 22.21%. The former role of the C-hog, with 8 perks, is now divided into these four planes!

9) Simpy put, the perk on the F4U-1C split it's role to two fighters - Typhoon and the La-7. Cross breed the Typhoon and the La-7 and what do you get?

a) La-7 and Typhoon, is a very fast plane on deck
b) Both La-7 and the Typhoon is a free plane
c) Typh with four Hispanos
d) Typh with 2k ordnance
e) Lots of cannon ammo

Fast plane + free + four hispanos + heavy ordnance + cannons

That's a C-hog.

Planes that resemble certain aspects of the Chog, became preferable. There are other planes which match "fast on deck" and "free" category. But the La-7, of all those others, is naturally the only choice. The "cannon" category was the reason behind the momentary increase in the N1K2s after the Chog was perked. But N1K2s, compared to the La-7s, were too damn slow.

10) Seafire and the F6F-5 is also an interesting case. In theory, F4U-1D and the F4U-1C is only different in the armament. But strangely, when the F4U-1C was perked, people tried moving to the D-hog, but they gave that up soon. They started flying Seafires and Hellcats. D-hog, so much simular to the F4U-1C than any other plane, was neglected totally.

This means:

a) the La-7 is that much more preferable and effective for the former C-hog crowd.

b) Hispanos, mean that much in AH. To hell with all other simualrities - when the gun sucks, it's not a worthy substitue. They moved to the La-7, with sucky guns but super performance enough to cover that disadvantage, or moved to the same quad-hispano plane - Typhoon.

c) The Hellcat is now the preferred carrier jabo - somewhat like a Spit9 with heavy bombs.

d) of course, Hellcats can't really turn with N1K2s and Spit9s - they are like Spit9s only against other planes. So, when fighting N1K2s and real Spits, the Seafire is used. It's got Hispanos, too.

...


Thus, in conclusion, the perks split the monopolistic 23% Chog usage into bits.

Now, we need perks to split those 7~10% planes into 3~5%. However, when other late war planes remain unperked, there just will be another 10% planes arising.

Thus, perking the late war performers, and forcing them into the 1943 era, should be considered.

Whether the 1943 version of the "Big Four" will be a shadow of the late war "Big Fours", will remain something to be seen.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Yes indeed, I've had pings at 1000/1100 yards - me in a F6F and the bogie in a 109. I got a clean kill! Total BS if you ask me.

Do you know for a fact that the 109 had not received previous structutal damage and all it needed was a little more to effect the kill ?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bulz
at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...and that's BS too - the fact that those shots are possible.

Maybe he jinked into a pure headshot killing the pilot and causing the instant "BOOM!" death.

The point is ... you never really know these facts when presented with these situtations. Detail is not fine enough at these distances to make a crediable assement and judgement.

Slapshot,

The encounter with the 109 was a very long time ago. I had not been in the game long. I got bounced by the pesky 109 who didn't damage me, but zoomed up out of reach each time. In frustration, I fired a few rounds in his direction after about the third bounce. To my utter amazement, his plane blew up. (Range 1000-1100, upward angle of about 30°) On Ch1, his comment was something like "Wow! Nice shot from 1100 yards!" - the point being that the range was ~1050yds both for him and for me. (No lag error) His plane was not smoking up to that point, and judging from the way it was flying, it had little if any other damage until I hit it. But I can't remember if we talked about that - probably not.

As for the shot Bulz recalls - 873yds - could have been a head shot. But it's not as if those lucky fluke shots are occurring once in a blue moon. It happens time after time after time. And some of the guys who make those shots have perfected it. No, for my money it happens too often for it to be "lucky head shots". Besides which, would a cannon round fly 800yds, against air resistance, catch up to a target egressing at 400mph and still have sufficient kinetic energy to cause damage to the target? I don't have much knowledge of ballistics, but I do recall the discussions that took place when WB adopted a new gunnery model about 5 years ago.  I was left in no doubt that the gunnery revisions were a step in the right direction. Basically, 600/800 yard shots became a thing of the past. The new order was to close to max 300 or 100-200 for planes armed with cannon. 500 yard shots simply wouldn't work any more, and the indications are that AH2 will go the same way.