Author Topic: Prisoner Abuse  (Read 6888 times)

Offline Gixer

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« on: May 05, 2004, 03:14:36 AM »
Would of thought a thread would of started on this one by now given the amount of media coverage and implications to US Middle East relations



...-Gixer

Offline Maniac

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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2004, 03:55:14 AM »
Its a taboo topic.

Bush Hater.
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Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2004, 04:00:06 AM »
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Batz

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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2004, 04:01:54 AM »
An investigation has just started looking into the deaths of 10 prisoners...

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2004, 01:23:01 PM »
This is the first US news source I've seen pick up the story.  It was on the BBC and CBC websites yesterday.



New York Times

May 5, 2004


Army Discloses Criminal Inquiry on Prison Abuse


By DOUGLAS JEHL and ERIC SCHMITT

WASHINGTON, May 4 — In the last 16 months, the Army has conducted more than 30 criminal investigations into misconduct by American captors in Iraq and Afghanistan, including 10 cases of suspicious death, 10 cases of abuse, and two deaths already determined to have been criminal homicides, the Army's vice chief of staff said Tuesday.

To date, the most severe penalties in any of the cases were less-than-honorable discharges for five Army soldiers, military officials said. No one has been sentenced to prison, they said.

The disclosure of the investigations, by Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army's second-highest ranking general, was the strongest indication to date of a wider pattern of abuse at American prisons beyond the horrific descriptions and photographs that have emerged recently of acts of humiliation, sexual and otherwise, at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in November.

At the Pentagon on Tuesday, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld condemned the abuses at Abu Ghraib as "totally unacceptable and un-American," but sought to minimize the significance of incidents elsewhere and insisted that the military had acted swiftly in cases in which misconduct was alleged. "The system works," he said.

But on Capitol Hill, members of the Senate Armed Services Committee expressed anger after a briefing in which they were told of the details and potential scope of the misconduct for the first time.

The Senate Intelligence Committee said it would hold a closed session on Wednesday to determine whether American intelligence officers from the military or other agencies were involved.

The Bush administration dispatched top officials, including Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser, to contain the fallout over the widening story of abuse at the prisons, which Mr. Powell said had "stunned every American." Administration officials have acknowledged that the episode had caused enormous damage to the American image around the world.

To date, only Army military police officers assigned to Abu Ghraib prison have been disciplined in abuses committed in November in a secure cellblock. But a March 9 report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba said two military intelligence officers and two private contractors who oversaw interrogations may have been "either directly or indirectly responsible."

It was not until April 24 that the Army began to investigate possible involvement by military intelligence units and contractors working with them in Iraq in any abuse, including the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade; employees of CACI, a private contractor; and the Iraqi Survey Group, a unit of the Defense Intelligence Agency, according to Defense Department officials.

The worst abuses at Abu Ghraib took place in November, after Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, then in charge of the detention facility at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, recommended changes in procedures intended "to rapidly exploit internees for actionable intelligence," according to General Taguba's report.

In Iraq on Tuesday, General Miller said he had recommended that military police be given a more active role in gathering intelligence, but said the abuses had not been the result.

In providing a detailed accounting of other Army investigations into accusations of abuse, General Casey said the military had conducted a total of 25 criminal investigations into deaths and 10 into allegations of misconduct involving detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Of the cases involving death, the cause in 12 was natural or undetermined.

Of the 13 other deaths, one — a prisoner killed while trying to escape — was ruled a justifiable homicide, General Casey said.

Of the two cases determined to have been criminal homicides, defense officials said, one was in Iraq, and has resulted in a dishonorable discharge but not the jailing of the American soldier responsible, whose actions were judged to have been provoked by rock-throwing Iraqi prisoners.

The other case was in Afghanistan and involved a person working with the Central Intelligence Agency who has not yet been charged with a crime, the military officials said. A C.I.A. official disputed the idea that any determination had been made in that case about possible agency involvement. "The investigation is still under way," the official said.

The other 10 deaths are still under investigation.

The accounting by Army officials of the deaths of Iraqi prisoners apparently did not include a case in which two marines from Camp Pendleton, Calif., are set to stand trial this summer on charges of abuse involving an Iraqi prisoner who died in their custody in June 2003.

It was not clear whether the cases listed by the military as being under investigation included the deaths of two prisoners in Iraq that C.I.A. officials have said are being reviewed because of the possible involvement of agency personnel.

Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, the top Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, said in a telephone interview that the impact of the abuse cases in the Middle East would extend "beyond what we can imagine today on our troops and our nation's security. It will just fuel the anger and ill-feeling in the region."

Senator John McCain of Arizona, a top Republican on the panel, called for a public hearing "as soon as possible" in which the committee would ask Mr. Rumsfeld and other top officials to explain "how this whole situation evolved, what action is being taken, and what further actions needs to be taken to prevent a recurrence of this terrible situation."

Mr. Rumsfeld, appearing at a midafternoon news conference, identified six separate broad reviews that he said had started since January, when the first reports of the abuse at Abu Ghraib reached Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top American commander in Iraq.

"We're taking and will continue to take whatever steps are necessary to hold accountable those that may have violated the code of military conduct and betrayed the trust placed in them by the American people," he said.

Among Americans conducting interrogations in Iraqi prisons, members of the Iraq Survey Group, under the command of Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton of the Defense Intelligence Agency, had primary responsibility for the interrogation of Iraqi prisoners designated as "high-value targets," according to senior intelligence officials.

But a spokesman for the Defense Intelligence Agency said the agency had "not heard of any allegations involving our people."

C.I.A. officials also took part in some interrogations involving high-value targets, including as many as two dozen prisoners in Abu Ghraib, an agency official said.

But intelligence officials said the primary role in interrogating Iraqi prisoners appeared to have been played by Army intelligence units, under the overall command until recently of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, which answered to Col. Thomas Pappas, who was among those singled out for particular criticism in the report by General Taguba.

Ralph Williams, a spokesman for the Titan Corporation in San Diego, said Tuesday that John Israel, one of the contract employees implicated in the prison abuse scandal, worked for a Titan subcontractor that he would not name.

The Army's classified report on the abuse at Abu Ghraib identifies Mr. Israel as a translator who was, with others, "directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses" at the prison and recommended "immediate disciplinary action."

Offline airguard

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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2004, 01:42:40 PM »
Everyone with their iq intackt know that this is not representative of the US army/navy etc.... or for that matter the British forces.

As usually a few idiots are making it hard for the rest of us.

But It is kinda strange that this should not be  common knowledge, it happens in any war and withing any army.
Even the allied under ww2 did the same things vs. germans,italians and japanese soldiers/civilians but not much has been said about it.

Take a look at the stories told by both americans and germans soldiers that survieved the ww2. They both tell the same stories there is nothing like a nice war where people follow the rules its a win or loose situation and that goes for all wars.
If you raise your hands and surrender, you might get shot anyway so why not just give the iron to its full.

That also do things to people fiting it, they get cruel and use their upper hand if they can. If they cant win it they might get even more cruel and thats the worst scenario.

I am not a expert but when i heard my granpa told me how he felt about it(ww2), it kinda helped me understand somthing too.

I did some UN time in Lebanon and know somthing about the arab/Israli problem It will not be solved in our lifetime unless somthing shuts us all down.
I am a Norwegian eating my fish, and still let my wife mess me around in stupid shops...

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2004, 01:47:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by airguard
Even the allied under ww2 did the same things vs. germans,italians and japanese soldiers/civilians but not much has been said about it.


I don't think it's a good comparison.  Were these things happening in Germany, Italy and Japan one year after occupation began?

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2004, 01:50:58 PM »
Ah, thought you might have been speaking of this prisoner abuse, hardly mentioned in the press:

 

Quote
Situation for Women in Saddam's Iraq

In 1979, immediately upon coming to power, Saddam Hussein silenced all political opposition in Iraq and converted his one-party state into a cult of personality. Since then, his regime has systematically executed, tortured, imprisoned, raped, terrorized, and repressed the Iraqi people. Iraq is a nation rich in culture, with a long history of intellectual and scientific achievement, especially among its women. However, Saddam Hussein's brutal regime has silenced the voices of Iraq's women, along with its men, through violence and intimidation.

 

In Iraq under Saddam, if you are a woman, you could face:

Beheading. Under the pretext of fighting prostitution, units of "Fedayeen Saddam," the paramilitary organization led by Uday Hussein, Saddam's eldest son, have beheaded in public more than 200 women throughout the country, dumping their severed heads at their families' doorsteps. Many families have been required to display the victim's head on their outside fences for several days. These barbaric acts were carried out in the total absence of any proper judicial procedures and many of the victims were not engaged in prostitution, but were targeted for political reasons. For example, Najat Mohammad Haydar, an obstetrician in Baghdad, was beheaded after criticizing the corruption within health services. (Amnesty International Report, Iraq: Systematic Torture of Political Prisoners, August 2001; Iraqi Women's League in Damascus, Syria)

 

Rape.
The Iraqi Government uses rape and sexual assault of women to achieve the following goals: to extract information and forced confessions from detained family members; to intimidate Iraqi oppositionists by sending videotapes showing the rape of female family members; and to blackmail Iraqi men into future cooperation with the regime. Some Iraqi authorities even carry personnel cards identifying their official "activity" as the "violation of women's honor." (U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices-2001, March 2002; Iraq Research and Documentation Project, Harvard University)

 

 

Torture.
The Iraqi Government routinely tortures and kills female dissidents and the female relatives of Iraqi oppositionists and defectors. Victims include Safiyah Hassan, the mother of two Iraqi defectors, who was killed after publicly criticizing the Iraqi Government for killing her sons after their return to Iraq. Women in Saddam's jails are subjected to the following forms of torture: brutal beatings, systematic rape, electrical shocks, and branding. (U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices-2001, March 2002; U.S. Department of State, Iraq: A Population Silenced, December 2002)

 

 

 

 

 

Murder.
In 1990, Saddam Hussein introduced Article 111 into the Iraqi Penal Code in a calculated effort to strengthen tribal support for his regime. This law exempts men who kill their female relatives in defense of their family's honor from prosecution and punishment. The UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women reported that more than 4,000 women have been victims of so-called "honor killings" since Article 111 went into effect. (UN Commission on Human Rights, Report of the Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women, January 2002)


Reference: U.S. State Department, 1999.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2004, 01:59:20 PM »
"Ah, thought you might have been speaking of this prisoner abuse"


Wow Rip, you only contributed one sentence to your post and it's a lie.  And the article is a strawman.  Or are you going to be using Bathist Iraq as a benchmark for US behaviour.  :rolleyes:

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2004, 02:04:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
On the other hand Thrawn, there wasn't a guerrilla war being fought in Germany and Japan one year after their occupation began. I do however get your point, WWII is not a good comparison to this situation.


Ripsnort, are you defending the crimes committed by these (few) American servicemen? It sure looks that way.


Are you measuring the entire USA military on the errors of a handful? Sure looks that way....

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2004, 02:06:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
"Ah, thought you might have been speaking of this prisoner abuse"


Wow Rip, you only contributed one sentence to your post and it's a lie.  And the article is a strawman.  Or are you going to be using Bathist Iraq as a benchmark for US behaviour.  :rolleyes:


The abuse of these iraqi prisoners are getting twice the coverage that prison abuses from saddam had since 1991 Thrawn, at least here in America.

Offline lada

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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2004, 02:11:27 PM »
Ripsnort..

it seems to me that your administration trying to say.
EDIT: was edited re read your post


hey dweebs .. they were rapped before, so shut up and let our ill soldiers do their job, coz we bringing in democracy and peace.....

anyway its rock to see that someone have balls to compare SH`s regime with contemporary US regime

fresh idea after those Nazi comparations :D
« Last Edit: May 05, 2004, 02:13:49 PM by lada »

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2004, 02:12:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
*lol* My God you are an obvious liar, I even used the word "few" to single the perpetrators out.


I guess maybe our exchange was lost in translation:

I am no more defending the actions of these servicemen than you are blanketing the entire USA military of their actions. So, to answer your question, no I am not defending them. I *am* pointing out the bias of the press, thus my original  post had you opened your eyes...in America, this is getting more attention than Saddams abuses to his prisoners did from 1990-2002.

For the record, its good for this stuff to come out, heads *should* roll, after all, we *are* the good guys and we don't need creeps like these guys in the service...but...where was the press during the womens sufferage in Iraq ?  No where. Shame on us(them).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2004, 02:14:30 PM by Ripsnort »

Offline -MZ-

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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2004, 02:14:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
The abuse of these iraqi prisoners are getting twice the coverage that prison abuses from saddam had since 1991 Thrawn, at least here in America.


You have no basis for making that statement.  Everyone knows about what a bad guy Saddam was, and this has been especially emphasized since our originally stated reason for going to war turned out to be a big lie.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2004, 02:15:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by -MZ-
You have no basis for making that statement.  Everyone knows about what a bad guy Saddam was, and this has been especially emphasized since our originally stated reason for going to war turned out to be a big lie.


Saddams abuses never made the national evening news 5 nights in a row...this situation has. That is my basis.