Author Topic: Distance Countdown... (Read 717 times)

NHawk · « **on:** May 14, 2004, 07:15:46 PM »

I know it's been brought up before, but the distance countdown is really a problem as it is now. There is no way of guaging how fast an enemy is closing on you. If you don't watch them closely they can close on your 6 before you know it.

Example: Enemy 1500 out. Look forward. Look back Enemy 1000 out. Look forward, begin evasive look back and 400 off tail.

Not good at all. At least return the countdown to the old one below 1000 or 1500 so speed can be guaged.

GODO · « **Reply #1 on:** May 16, 2004, 05:23:14 AM »

We need some kind of "closure rate" indicator. They way they are implemented now is useless for me. With actual graphics, I'm able to notice that closure rate only at very close range.

BenDover · « **Reply #2 on:** May 16, 2004, 08:52:01 AM »

Your problem is you looked forward when you knew there was a enemy 1.5k off your 6.

NHawk · « **Reply #3 on:** May 16, 2004, 09:48:13 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by BenDover
Your problem is you looked forward when you knew there was a enemy 1.5k off your 6.

LOL!! 1.5k off my six is usually not a problem since I can judge closure rate in AH1 and decide on the proper action based on his closure rate. And most good evasives take place at the last possible second to prevent the attacking pilot from compensating. Starting evasives at 1.5k out gives the attacking pilot far to much time to compensate.

Starting at about 1k out is about the max distance for good evasives depending on speed of the attacking plane. To go from 1k out to 400 out in less than a second says his closure rate was HUGE. Being unable to judge that is my whole point. They way it is now, the distance counter may as well be eliminated completely since it's a useless item for combat situations. It's just a nonsensical item of information.

Soulyss · « **Reply #4 on:** May 16, 2004, 11:01:45 AM »

I'm not a huge fan of how range is dsiplayed now, but I think a lot of fus will go away when we re learn how to read it. I think you can tell rate of closure. You just have to get used to the new method. You can't tell with just a glance you have to look for a second to get an idea, I think furballs just got a lot less survivable.

zanshin · « **Reply #5 on:** May 16, 2004, 03:45:13 PM »

I agree the big jumps don't work, for me anyway.

AH have distance markers to compensate for the fact that computer images on a screen doesn't allow distance judgement as in live flying. It seems settled that distance information is needed to make the virtual flying more realistic by providing information that is lacking in the simulation images alone.

So now closure rate. In live flying (now an assumption not being a pilot) closure rate can be judged by observed rate of change of distance so for a sim to provide the equivalent of live information the artificial distance info has to be updated at rate which allows closure rate to be perceived. This means the distance has to be updated at a suitable rate.

It seems true the current AH2 update rate is not sufficient. Im my view anyway.

If the above assumption is incorrect then difficulty in judging closure rate is like real life and so be it, if correct, however, the distance updates should be at smaller distance increments to allow closure rate to be judged more easily, it seems to me.

Kweassa · « **Reply #6 on:** May 16, 2004, 04:28:41 PM »

No problem for me.

Perception of whether an object is closing in or not, is actually not as clear as we think it is. Even for animals, which have incredibly developed reflexes comapred to human beings, still get hit by cars.

Some of those instances are purely because they didn't have enough time to react, but a lot others, where one clearly sees a dear at least 10yards off, and it refuses to move and gets hit - its because a vehicle doesn't show any external sign of movement, and couple that with lack of stereoscopic vision on many animals.. and literally the animal does not sense an object is moving towards it until too late.

Same thing with planes - if an object moves through the air towards you the closure rate can be perceived only by constant watch over a certain length of time, which only then can one be sure that it is either moving, or closing towards you.

The closure and departure by 200yard increments is very effective in simulating that. If you've detected a plane from further out, then it's really no problem. However if a certain plane closes in with you being unaware of just where and how it latched behind you, then you have no idea of the E state until its too late. It makes the fights really more interesting, not to mention make the people a little bit more cautious in shooting and evading.

BenDover · « **Reply #7 on:** May 16, 2004, 05:03:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by NHawk
LOL!! 1.5k off my six is usually not a problem since I can judge closure rate in AH1 and decide on the proper action based on his closure rate. And most good evasives take place at the last possible second to prevent the attacking pilot from compensating. Starting evasives at 1.5k out gives the attacking pilot far to much time to compensate.

Starting at about 1k out is about the max distance for good evasives depending on speed of the attacking plane. To go from 1k out to 400 out in less than a second says his closure rate was HUGE. Being unable to judge that is my whole point. They way it is now, the distance counter may as well be eliminated completely since it's a useless item for combat situations. It's just a nonsensical item of information.

I never said anything about taking, or not taking evasives.
I said you weren't paying attention to enemy that you know is there, is on your 6, and is likely wanting to kill you.
Not paying attention is your own fault, therefore if you die its your fault.

Batz · « **Reply #8 on:** May 16, 2004, 05:10:18 PM »

np for me either, leave it as is please folks will adapt... Once they break that AH1 crutch it will be fine.....

I don't think pilots new the exact by the yard closure rate. You think yoiu cab spto how fast an object is moving toward you or away from you at 4500feet? Unless the the thing hauling arse I doudt you could....

NHawk · « **Reply #9 on:** May 16, 2004, 05:18:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BenDover
I never said anything about taking, or not taking evasives.
I said you weren't paying attention to enemy that you know is there, is on your 6, and is likely wanting to kill you.
Not paying attention is your own fault, therefore if you die its your fault.

I think you misunderstand my point. The amount of time I looked forward was about the amount of time it takes to release and depress the hatswitch. The distance is deceiving because it reads 1500 until they are 1000 out. Or at least that's what I saw. Hence no way to tell closure rate.

And if your system is that good that you can tell something is getting closer and at what speed that's happening. Terrific! Mine isn't. All I saw was a dot.

Again, if it's going to be there make it usefull. Else, get rid of it completely.

Kweassa · « **Reply #10 on:** May 16, 2004, 07:17:34 PM »

Quote

I think you misunderstand my point. The amount of time I looked forward was about the amount of time it takes to release and depress the hatswitch. The distance is deceiving because it reads 1500 until they are 1000 out. Or at least that's what I saw. Hence no way to tell closure rate.

And if your system is that good that you can tell something is getting closer and at what speed that's happening. Terrific! Mine isn't. All I saw was a dot.

No, it depends. It's got nothing to do with system specs.

...

You look behind, see a bogey at you which reads '1000'

Okay, how fast is he coming in? Obviously, it's not hard to guess if you have been tracking his movement since he was further out. Over 1000 yards, the distance changes in increments of 500 yards. So how fast it changes by 500 yards, gives you the general idea of how fast it is moving, by observing the "500yard ticks".

But if you didn't notice him before? Then obviously you have no previous knowledge of from where, and how fast he closed in. You have to wait and see how fast it changes by 200yard ticks.

I presume it's the latter case you have problems with - and basically, that's how it should be. Having just one glance at a bogey behind you at dangerous distances like 1000yards, and immediately being able to judge relative E status by the "countdown" in 1 yard increments, is a too big of a crutch.

Quote

Again, if it's going to be there make it usefull. Else, get rid of it completely.

It's useful - gunnery is harder, judgement of distance is more difficult, and close-range fights are lot more exciting.

Imoutfishing · « **Reply #11 on:** May 16, 2004, 07:58:34 PM »

Any way it shags out the distance count down the way it is does not add anything to the experiance for me. While buffing you are forced to look away from time to time it helps to know how fast they are coming.
At least make an option field to change the setting.

GScholz · « **Reply #12 on:** May 16, 2004, 08:17:14 PM »

Judging closure rate at long distances is very difficult in real life too, and IMHO this system is much better than the old AH "laser range finder". Below 600 yards or so it is relatively easy to judge closure rate by looking at the target ... you know, like they had to do back in WWII.

NHawk · « **Reply #13 on:** May 16, 2004, 09:10:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
You look behind, see a bogey at you which reads '1000'

Okay, how fast is he coming in? Obviously, it's not hard to guess if you have been tracking his movement since he was further out. Over 1000 yards, the distance changes in increments of 500 yards. So how fast it changes by 500 yards, gives you the general idea of how fast it is moving, by observing the "500yard ticks".

But if you didn't notice him before? Then obviously you have no previous knowledge of from where, and how fast he closed in. You have to wait and see how fast it changes by 200yard ticks.

At 1000 I started evasives, it's the tick from 1500 to 1000 that bothers me. In the time it took to look back (1500 out) glance forward so I know what's in front of me and look back the bogie was at 1000. Look forward so I know what not to hit and start evasives, look back again and he's 400 off tail.

I guess what I'm saying is a bogie could be at 1001 and the display will show 1500. That is the part that really bothers me. That extra 499 makes a difference when it comes to the split second decision making process.

GScholz · « **Reply #14 on:** May 16, 2004, 09:20:49 PM »

In R/L you can't judge the difference of 1500 yards and 1000 yards. Its just a speck in the distance.