Author Topic: Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?  (Read 2515 times)

Offline beet1e

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I put the word FREE in quotes because no health care is free. By "free", I mean free at the point of sale.

There are three countries I'd like to consider, each with a very different economic model from the other two - you can add your country to the list. [list=1]
  • Norway - substantial natural resources of petrochemicals, high taxes but high standard of living, relatively small or even negligible nonproductive underclass, an excellent healthcare system in which money does not change hands between patient and doctor. Is Norway a socialist country? I wouldn't have considered it as such, but I don't know their rates of income tax and the rates of indirect taxation.
  • USA - substantial natural resources of oil, grain, fruit/veg., livestock. Relatively low direct taxes compared with most other western countries. The population is polarised between very rich and very poor. No government provided health care to speak of. Health care benefits provided by employers (plans like Blue Cross/Blue Shield) are available to some, but not all, of the nationwide workforce. A substantial nonproductive underclass. High standard of living for those who want it, ie. prepared to work for it. Definitely not a socialist country.
  • Britain - substantial oil resources, a substantial nonproductive underclass, taxes which were brought down to sensible levels in the 1980s have gone back up since 1997. Health care has been provided by the National Health Service (NHS) since 1948, instigated by the government of the day to improve the nation's health in the post-war years. As well as NHS care, some employers provide their employees with plans offering private care. Socialist? Certainly not in the Thatcher years. Before that, maybe. Since 1997? I would have to say no.
So which of these countries has the "best" system? The answer isn't obvious. Norway seems to have it made, but high rates of income tax might stick in the craw.

The USA has good hospitals, I am sure. But high costs for those whose plans do not cover the required treatment. For those who have no employment and therefore no health plan, the reality is grim indeed. In Chicago, for example, the last hope for some is the Cook County Hospital, an aberration of medical facilities where the most common cause of complications in pregnancy is gunshot wounds. (source - BBC documentary)

Britain has the NHS. It was a good idea in the beginning, but it is drowning in red tape and administration costs. The hospitals are dirty in some cases. Hygiene standards are questionable. But there is private care available, in first rate hospitals. The socialists hate that. But I feel that if I choose to spend a chunk of my money on private health care, I should not be obstructed in making that choice. Other people might choose to spend £50 a week on cigarettes - that's their choice.

The NHS isn't all bad. My younger niece lost her hearing at age 5, and then underwent surgery to have a cochlea implant fitted. It was pioneering surgery, and there were many hospital visits. Privately, the surgery plus implant plus processor would have cost £40,000. The NHS paid every penny. One wonders whether any private health plans would have picked up the tab for this.

Three health care models - take your pick.

Offline ra

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2004, 07:15:47 AM »
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The population is polarised between very rich and very poor.

What hogwash.   Which manifesto did you get your information from?

Offline strk

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2004, 07:32:26 AM »
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Originally posted by ra
What hogwash.   Which manifesto did you get your information from?


I think he meant tha the income classes area more heavily grouped at the extreme "polar" ends

But just go ahead and assume he means class warfare and call him a communist, that is more fun, right?

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2004, 07:33:28 AM »
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Originally posted by ra
What hogwash.   Which manifesto did you get your information from?


I would not say it is completely polarized between the rich and the poor, but the gap is growing fast.

Offline Nilsen

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2004, 07:37:56 AM »
I am very biased here, but i think that everyone shold have the right to the same level of healthcare no matter what income you have. If you would like to have a low income job (those are often the same as healthcare workers, teaching and caring for the old) you should not be punished by having to use lots of your money on private healthcare and/or setteling for lesser quality care.

Education, healthcare, political freedom and security for ALL should be the basis of any modern society.......but all this comes at a cost.

I don't like paying taxes, but i don't like the alternatives either.

Offline Momus--

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2004, 07:39:35 AM »
I wouldn't go as far as to say the US is a non-socialist nation either.

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2004, 07:42:07 AM »
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Originally posted by Momus--
I wouldn't go as far as to say the US is a non-socialist nation either.


Score one for a mixed market economy. My personal belief is that health care should be a basic human right.

Offline lazs2

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2004, 08:22:24 AM »
staby.. a basic human right is that I pay for your healthcare?   how does that work?    The government should protect human rights... we have a RIGHT to defend ouselves and a RIGHT to free speech and a RIGHT to not have the government infringe on our freedom.

How is someone extorting money from me a human right?   How long would the socialist countries last if they if they paid out millions every time a doctor removed the wrong testicle or bothed an operation?  

How would the socialist countries do if they treated the same amount of illegal aliens that we do?  

The U.S. system is the best.  even if we went to socialist medicine we would still have to have tort reform to make it work..  we would still have to limit the amount of care.. On a practical note..Why bother?  why would we destroy the best care in the world ?

If we had tort reform everyone could afford health care.  But... they wouldn' t  have to ... there would be no point.. every employer would provide the new cheaper healthcare as an incentive.

lazs

Offline Gunslinger

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2004, 08:27:23 AM »
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USA - substantial natural resources of oil, grain, fruit/veg., livestock. Relatively low direct taxes compared with most other western countries. The population is polarised between very rich and very poor. No government provided health care to speak of. Health care benefits provided by employers (plans like Blue Cross/Blue Shield) are available to some, but not all, of the nationwide workforce. A substantial nonproductive underclass. High standard of living for those who want it, ie. prepared to work for it. Definitely not a socialist country.


Actually we have this little thing called Medicare.  If you are poor/unemployed/retired/single mother/disabled you can qualify for it.  It's not the best but I would imagine that it's comparable to "free" govt healthcare elsewere as far as its goods and bads.

Offline lazs2

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2004, 08:34:01 AM »
Oh.. and any emergency ward in the states is required to see apatient regardless of if they can pay or not.. this is health care provided by the rest of us... socialism.

lazs

Offline Staga

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2004, 08:50:42 AM »
Lazs who pays your army? I'm quite sure there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of tax payers who doesn't like the idea that their money will go for maintaining world's most powerfull army.

Who pays your roads? Are they all paid by their users, ie. by collecting road taxes at every cross road?

Who pays the salary of your police forces?
There has to be millions of law obeying people who hasn't or ever will be need help from cops? Why should theypay for something they don't need?

Offline ra

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2004, 08:59:37 AM »
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who pays your army?

The army does what the government wants, not what an individual taxpayer wants.
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Who pays your roads?

Roads are built how and where the government wants, and speed limits are set by the government, not by individual taxpayers.
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Who pays the salary of your police forces?

The police are government employees, they don't take orders from individual citizens.

Most Americans don't want socialized medicine because they already get good healthcare and they want some control over their medical care.   The kind of control they don't have over the army, the roads, or the police.

ra

Offline majic

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2004, 09:03:45 AM »
I always love being told that I and just about everyone I know do not exist.


BTW- Users of the roads do pay more in the form of registration fees and gas taxes.

Offline lazs2

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2004, 09:04:48 AM »
staga.  We formed our government with the power to create an army to defend the country.  That is what is written.

I do not believe that the government has the right to create the roads using taxes.   They tax us 34 cents a gallon and spend allmost none of it on roads.  If private companies had control of that money, bid on the work, we would have far better roads.  That is what I would like.

Police are paid by the states and counties and are budgeted out of those money's.   There are very few federal police and those should be disbanded.

lazs

Offline Staga

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Are countries providing "free" medical care deemed to be "socialist"?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2004, 09:22:01 AM »
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Police are paid by the states and counties and are budgeted out of those money's


Well it's good to hear it's not tax-payers money used in those (for some) un-needed services your communities are offering you but the money comers from states and counties  :)