I know that I may bore...but...

[RAM]

Lets see...In WWII, German experten discovered that the best way to kill a B-17 was to headon it...the fast aproach and the weak front weapons in B17 would make those passes fairly secure for the fighters...when B17G came, the weapons were a bit more dangerous but the difficult aiming of the gunners did make those passes very deadly still.


OK.Nice. This night I was coming to F17 to land, when I saw a VERY LOW (5K or less) buff coming directly for me. I retracted landing gear, and started filming...because I had a bad feeling of what was going to come.
I headoned the B17, from 1K I got steady and HEAVY hits on left wing...the wing blewed when I was 300 yds away. And I lost wing and EXPLODED 2 seconds later.

WELL...who says now 50 cals are PORKED? who says that aiming in B17 ISNT EASY?...why does Fw190 blow up in a Headon (again it had armor because BUFFS)?...Headons were difficult,but secure for the fighters because the short time to aim, but the B17s gunners had worse situation.

I have film on this.only 50Kb. I have the proof, and note that I turned film on because I knew what was going to happen.

SO! before next time a Buff-driver says that his guns are sooooo porked, think in this:
IF I CANT HEADON A B17 with a Fw190...what I am supposed to do???? heh?

SO, after all, Buff's death ray is still there.
Nice...really NICE!


------------------
Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

[Pongo]

If you were low and slow approaching the buff from the front, its no better then a six approach.  Hes got 5 50cals firing forward, Basically you HOd a P51.
The HO that the germans used was a full speed diving HO, was yours? did you have all 6 guns loaded? Lots of germans died using the correct tactic too.. There are no shure solutions only best ones.  If your gunnery is up to it the best approach is a 2 or 10 high attack, the cockpit or wing root is at your center of mass, and all the shots the buff have at you are tracking shots. You are also in a great position for a second run if required.

Another characteristic of the defensive fire of buffs is that once they have you lined up, they get a high % of pilot kills. This is just a side effect of the coordinated gunnery model of the buff. Sounds like thats what happend to you.

------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[RAM]

I had 4 20mm cannons with 450 rounds left...so I had ammo on ALL cannons,and the 13mms too, of course

I saw him from 7K and I was higher so I could accelerate before the attack. The headon happened at more than 300mph IAS,and he wasnt slow,too.

and, before I died, pilot death or whatever, my wing was ripped off, ENTIRE wing...so I was ded anyways. I stand in what I said. THIS IS WEIRD!

[Karnak]

That was the B-17E and F the Germans found that on.  The G was built specificly to address that problem by adding the chin turret.  By and large it was successful and the head on attacks on our 'Forts was reduced greatly.  The B-17 in AH is the G.

Still sounds improbable that a lone 17 could defend itself from a fighter.  Historicly the 17s used box formations to maximize fire.

Sisu

[ra]

I wonder what it looked like from the buff's POV.  He may well have been lighting you up like a Christmas tree for quite a while before you got his wing.  Netlag may account for the delay.

Last night I bounced a B-26 from dead 6 and shot off both his wings.  He continued to fly, fuselage only, for several seconds, racking up pings until he finally PK'd me.  I assume that I was dead before his wings came off but netlag didn't let my FE know about it.

[funked]

Aiming the guns in the bombers is very easy.  If a bandit isn't pulling G-s I can light him up from 1200 yds on in.  He might get some pings on me but he is going to die.

In real life it was harder to hit a fighter than a bomber because the fighter is a smaller target.

In here they are both bloody easy to hit.  But the fighter is weaker, and usually dies.

[RAM]

cc Thats my point, funked...thats what I call "god's death ray" whatever a buff wants to hit, he hits it...

TURN THE DAMNED AIMING DOWN!!!..then give them theyr so-wanted-durability...I repeat...if I get killed by a buff in a headon pass on a fw190 ,then I'd better go drinking beer!

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-29-2000).]

[Kieren]

RAM-

I might add the purpose of the head-on attack was to possibly kill some buffs, but mainly to break up the box formations. Once the sick cow was cut from the herd it was much easier to drag down. The mortars carried by the 190's are for this purpose. Disrupting the bomber streams also lessened their effectiveness.

Head-on attacks weren't necessarily safe, they were simply better than the other options. Besides, can you imagine being a bomber pilot staring down the cannons of 12 190's?  

[SC-GreyBeard]

As someone else mentioned,,, the Head ON attacks developed by the luftwaffen, was against the B-17 E and F models which did NOT have the firepower in the nose of the B-17 G

generally as  funked said, I can lite up a fighter coming in at around 1200....
On occassions I've been "ON" and started getting pings at 1800.. I've blew em up at 1600 on 2 occassions.

Hardest attacks to thwart are the diagonal slash attacks.

Headon's, and Six oc attacks are bread and butter for me.....  

------------------
GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"

[Vermillion]

LOL! here we go again with the "my airplane is armored" theory

RAM I challenge you to find any diagram or description of a Fw190 that had its wings armored, in any way shape or form.

Maybe and just maybe, the A8's specifically designed for ramming Bombers might have had a specially reinforced wing, but I would be really suprised.

Yes the Fw190 was a tough fighter, but that is in comparision to other aircraft, not to armored fight vehicles.

Thats like saying that a Fosters Beer can is more difficult to crush than a Budweiser Beer can. Yes it may be true, but both are still beer cans !!  

Basically we are flying large aluminum cans.

Now say it with me RAM  

My fighter is NOT a Panzer, My fighter is NOT a Panzer !  

Please don't take this as an insult RAM, cause I am playing with you. I am just trying to make everyone realize that aircraft are very delicate machinery.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[RAM]

Ahem...only difference between B17F and G was the nose turret,that added one 12.7mm MG to the forward firing arc of the B17; and slightly less speed because the drag and weightof the turret.

SO:if you are telling me that THAT ONLY MG turned the before terrifing vulnerable HO firing arc into a MORTAL one...LOL! ROTFL!...
difference was ONE MG...and excuse me but frontal attacks were developed until the end of the war, except by rocket and jet fighters. B17G was less vulnerable to HO, but still was VERY weak because the great difficult aiming because the closing speeds involved. In AH that speed doesnt disturb buff gunnery at all!! to say that a HO attack is as problematic for a fighter as a 6-o clock-one, is to GIVE ME THE REASON!!!!!

I dont say I must kill every bomber that I headon...I say that I can do a BIG ammount of damage,while I can perfectly survive because the armor of my 190, and the difficult gunner aiming that B17 historically had. Yesterday's death has pissed me off so much that I doubt I never will attack a buff never again...and If I do a HO in a 190 to a buff and I get killed in such a weird way I'll close my account at once. and that is a promise

Verm, Fw190A-8 series were heavy armored planes, designed with buff hunting on mind. It was a tough plane already, and with the add of the armor, was really tought to destry by a buff. Fw190's wings were VERY strenghtened on A-5or A-6 series (i dont remember it very well), so the wing structure was a strong one.

Anyway this discussion about damage is useless.I dont say my wing hasnt to break (well I say it, but I'll let it go for now). I say that buffs guns CANT HIT as they ARE HITTING NOW!!!...even the ack is easier to evade!!!!!!!!!!...in a HO they cant aim that way,so accurate, and the one who doesnt agree then knows VERY few about turret gunning. I am saying that right now B17s and B26 have death rays that makes them fire as Star destroyer's Turbolasers!!!!...and wait when next release comes...if the fall of the bullet will decrease, then whe have on the corner 2.0 Kills, megaAck carrying buffs, and so...

I hope I am wrong...but this is not going to get better...this is going to be FAR worse in 1.02 unless they turn down long range shooting and Mega-buff-god's death ray  



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-30-2000).]

[blitz]

He,he Ram,

calm down & work on your flying style concerning buff hunting.

As funked said : Don't attack in a straight line, be a movin target
 as long as possible and then shoot em to paradise  

blitz

[This message has been edited by blitz (edited 03-30-2000).]

[funked]

RAM, you can't expect to be invulnerable when HOing a bomber.  And remember the aiming problems caused by closure rate affected both parties.

Vermillion, note armor in wings in pic below.      

       


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-30-2000).]

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
SO! before next time a Buff-driver says that his guns are sooooo porked, think in this:
IF I CANT HEADON A B17 with a Fw190...what I am supposed to do???? heh?

SO, after all, Buff's death ray is still there.
Nice...really NICE!

Very simple answer, Fly the HogC like the majority of the people in the game!    If you had been in a HogC you would not have taken any damage and the buff would have exploded before your eye's at about 1.0 away from you.  Well out of the range of the buff's nerfed .50's.

[/sarcasm off]

RAM do you every fly buffs?  If you don't give it a try sometime.  

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[Citabria]

the reason buffs lethal from front in here is from those 2 cheek guns...

the fire directly forward but should not be able to do that at all