Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?

[ergRTC]

but straffo, that is a real disadvantage.  This is not some fictional reduction in a planes performance just to even things out.  109s had a very short range.  Not including this in the game is giving the plane an advantage it did not have.  Something like unlimited ammo in the 202.  Historically wimpy guns are an important part of the 202s 'gestalt'.

[F4UDOA]

Batz,

The fact one player prefers a fuel mod at 1.5 over 2.0 has no relation to "realism".

Yes it does have a huge effect on realism. It causes the P-51 to weight more than it should and even more importantly it gives the smaller airplane say a 109 more flight time at a reduced weight that translates directly into more performance. It's like adding horsepower.

P-51D
261 gallons internal
1566LBS or fuel at 100%

BF109G-10
106 gallons of fuel internal
636LBS of fuel at 100%

That's 2.5 times more weight in fuel. You can't simply say they should be at parity because the 109 had short legs. It's a fact of the aircrafts perfrormance the same as speed, climb or turn. Changing the fuel multplier for short range aircraft doesn't even the field it gives it an unrealistic bias. That is why the La-7 is such a popular mount in AH1. It flys like a rocket at 25% fuel and people say "how did it do that?" The answer is it could only do that for about 30 seconds in real life.

I can give you a real solution if you want one.

Every A/C starts at it's empty weight. No fuel or ammo.

You choose how much fuel and ammo you whish to carry but everything remains the correct weight. A .50Cal round weights .3lbs, a gallon of fuel weights 6lbs and so on down the line.

So if you want to carry 200gallons of fuel in your 109 or Yak you certainly can but you may wind up with a 10,000lbs airplane. Handling characteristics are effected proportionate to the weight gain.

The fuel consumption (SFC) of each airplane remains historically accurate and everyone pays the same price for gas and bullets.

Fair enough?

[Batz]

The p51 can take off from a rear base, its up to the player...

I don’t care about realism in the main and said so at the start of the 3 page of this thread.

All the fuel mod does is arbitrarily limit the amount of fun some planes have over others.

At 1.5 the p51 can take 50% fuel, at 2 it can take 75%, that’s up to the player. Whether 1.5 or 2 the 109 still takes 100% fuel, still has less weight in fuel, and still has a smaller combat radius etc... The only thing that is limited is the amount of time in the air it gets.

The 51 pilot is not forced to take off at a front line field, he’s not forced to fight over weight, these are choices left to the individual pilot. A yak has 28 min of fuel at 2. Virtually assuring it will be a hangar queen.

At either 1.5 or 2 the difference in fuel capacity remains the same, the rate of burn is what changes. The 51 pilot is not at a disadvantage with the FBM at 1.5 anymore then he is at 2. What happens at 2 is a whole set of planes get pushed aside because they have limited combat time.

This effects every one from the score potato to furballer,

Kills per sortie / kills per time become much harder and the furballer spends most of his time going to and from combat being bored.

Erg

The fuel in Scenarios is different then the main. So your Niki, A6M5 vs. F6F scenario means nothing. In Kurland the terrain is 1 to 1 but the fuel mod is 1.2. This is because with out a slightly higher mod the German planes could be in the air the entire 2 hour frame.

In the last BoB event the terrain was 1 to 1 but a higher fuel mod was set to limit the Axis to 15 min of combat over London. The Ruhr map is close to 1 to but again a slightly higher mod was chosen for game play reasons, even in the Ct the fuel mod is manipulated depending on the CM.

Scenarios are where things like fuel matter, in the main all the high fuel mod does is restrict the fun of those who like planes like the yak, spit la etc... That’s why there's no more fuel porking in AH2 because of its impact on fun, not realism.

The main is not ww2, it’s about combat. Limiting a sizeable portion of the players by arbitrarily choosing a fuel mod means these players will leave or you will have an arena filled with very few plane types.

The maps in AH are not real and are not set to a 2 to 1 scale. So a fuel mod at 2 is no more real then a fuel mod at 10.

Combat distances are only closer if you choose to take off from a closer field.

The fuel mod is simply a game play "tool". It’s not a realism "tool" at least how it’s applied in the main.

[ergRTC]

batz I really dont think you understand what the point of the new fuel system is.  

It is purely to ruin your life.


get over it.

[Batz]

Nice well thought out response...

It doesn't ruin anything in fact with the fuel mod at 2, as pointed out above the 109 gets more time in the air at mil power then at 2 in AH1.

You voluntarily entered this discussion, if you can’t handle it go away... or better yet "get over it".....

This thread isn’t about the "new fuel system" and you clearly can’t understand that.

It's about the unhistorical, unreal fuel mod. It is just an arbitrary setting and can be changed at the blink of an eye. The need to run at a reduced power setting to conserve fuel doesn't change because the fuel mod is at 1.5 or 2. Do the math and see how much time is gained…

Then go try a reading comprehension course or just don’t enter discussions if you don’t know what they are about.

[ergRTC]

Wow batz, are we a little touchy today.  

I am suprised you would even mention 'realistic'.  The terrain is half size, the altitude is not.  All we can do is attempt to get people to fly the planes more like they did in the war.  

What gets my goat, is that the only arguement is over something which could be hidden by htc and the arguement would be gone.  If we did not know there was a fuel modifier, you would have nothing to ***** about.  

Most ma maps have bases within a sector of each other.  Thats 25 miles right?  The range on the 109 is about 100 right?  Where is the issue?  The issue is that you do not want to fly at cruise, you want to fly mil power all day and all night.  You want to fly for hours without refueling.  None of which is historical, and all of which pushes the gaminess (is there a correct spelling to that?) of the MA.  If you want gamey you can keep defending your position.  People complained just as much about blackouts back when they were introduced in airwarrior.  Yet not having them allowed flight that was historically impossible.

[moot]

Originally posted by ergRTC
Wow batz, are we a little touchy today.  

[/b]Why mention it if you don't care?

What gets my goat, is that the only arguement is over something which could be hidden by htc and the arguement would be gone.  If we did not know there was a fuel modifier, you would have nothing to ***** about.  

[/b]Planes would fly for 1/2 the time they should and no one would notice.

Most ma maps have bases within a sector of each other.  Thats 25 miles right?  The range on the 109 is about 100 right?  Where is the issue?  The issue is that you do not want to fly at cruise, you want to fly mil power all day and all night.  You want to fly for hours without refueling.  None of which is historical, and all of which pushes the gaminess (is there a correct spelling to that?) of the MA.  If you want gamey you can keep defending your position.  People complained just as much about blackouts back when they were introduced in airwarrior.  Yet not having them allowed flight that was historically impossible. [/B]

Having a fuel mod is gamier than not.  Don't think that's the point.

[Batz]

Originally posted by ergRTC
Wow batz, are we a little touchy today.  

Go back and read your own reply...

I am suprised you would even mention 'realistic'.  The terrain is half size, the altitude is not.  All we can do is attempt to get people to fly the planes more like they did in the war.  

The terrains aren’t half, or to any set scale. They are set to what ever scale the mapmaker decides. Go check Baltic map and tell us its "scale".

I don’t care anything about realism in the main; there is none at all to worry about.

What gets my goat, is that the only arguement is over something which could be hidden by htc and the arguement would be gone.  If we did not know there was a fuel modifier, you would have nothing to ***** about.  

Anyone with math skills can figure out the fuel mod whether HT posts it or not.

Most ma maps have bases within a sector of each other.  Thats 25 miles right?  The range on the 109 is about 100 right?  Where is the issue?  The issue is that you do not want to fly at cruise, you want to fly mil power all day and all night.  You want to fly for hours without refueling.  None of which is historical, and all of which pushes the gaminess (is there a correct spelling to that?) of the MA.  If you want gamey you can keep defending your position.  People complained just as much about blackouts back when they were introduced in airwarrior.  Yet not having them allowed flight that was historically impossible.

All the main maps have fields at or near 25 miles not some. This is a "fun issue" and has nothing to do with "realism".

The issue is fun, as Straffo said he gave up his fav plane in the AH1 main because of fuel issues. A fuel mod is gamey; it’s a game tool that is manipulated to change game play. It’s not a realism setting.

"Hours with out refueling"? Do the math for a fuel mod of 1.5 then 2.0 and tell me how that equates to "hours without refueling"?

Nothing about the main is historical, no one in main cares about historical, the fuel mod isn’t historical so all your talk of "historical" is bunch of bs.

You have no idea how or what I fly. You were an RR AW so don’t tell me about anything related to realism. Historical and realism are what scenarios and events are for.  The rest is about having fun...

You want realism fly in one of the online wars at FB, until you experience that then tell me about "realism". No icons, don’t know what the enemy target is, or where they upped from, no gps map etc... I get all the realism I need form Fb and AH events...

The gamey thing here is the defending a fuel mod that arficially restricts the amount of time a particular plane should be allowed to fly. You want realism, demand that the fuel mod be switched to 1.

[ergRTC]

Have you ever looked at the time in the air a 109 had?   A 109E could up from france have 15 minutes of fun time over england and then had to rush home on fumes.  And that is with nursing it across the channel on both ends of the trip.

What is really at issue here, is your camp wants unlimited fuel.  That means fuel modifier goes to 1.  If bases are only 25 miles apart, that gives a 109e unlimited time to hang over the enemy base, it also means planes like the 109g10 can become long range escort planes.  Niether of which is realistic.  

Since the bases are so close (for gameplay reasons) to maintain the short legs of the gas guzzler without an extra gas tank, the modifier must be increased.  

What you are asking for is a crutch, nothing else.  If you get your 1 modifier, I would like to have cannons on my f6f. I would like a mustang that has a 5k climb rate.  I would like a p47 that can climb period.  Oh and a spit that does not suffer in high speed maneuvers.

As far as aw, I played all of the arenas, but ended AW in big pac.  I was never good enough to handle the full realism (though I tried), and knew it.

[Batz]

So?

The fuel mod at 1.5 doesn’t equate to "unlimited fuel".

Here's a clue since I assume from your posts you don’t what the fuel mod is.

If the fuel mod is set to 1 that’s rl fuel consumption.

Set at 2 that means the 109e in AH burns fuel 2 times as fast as rl.

So what if a 109E had 15 min over London....? We aren’t running a scenario in the main. In the 1st BoB scenario in which I was Axis Co the fuel was set to meet historical realism i.e. 15 min at mil/combat power over London. But it required that the we  “cruise” at lower power. The fuel mod in that event was lower (meaning burns less fuel) then in AH2.

The main terrains are fantasy made up terrains set up to facilitate game play. They aren’t scaled to match the fuel mod, nor is the fuel mod adjusted to match the terrains scale. Arbitrarily setting a fuel mod at 2 cuts the 109es flight time in half. In AH2 that’s just 25 min with fuel mod at 2. (Right now since the 109e hasn’t had its eng settings redone for Ah2)

Set at 1.5 it would be 33 min, a gain of 8 min at mil power. See how that works. Its not "unlimited fuel", it’s not" flying at mil power all day and all night" or "flying for hours without refueling."

Now at cruise the 8 min gain can be translated into a longer combat time, which is a good thing. The fuel mod effects all planes equally.

Its clear from your ranting that haven’t clue as to what’s being discussed.

Last post from me, I got the main thing I wanted out of this thread, no fuel porking...

[ergRTC]

? 8 min?  You moan and groaned for this long about 8 minutes?

[ergRTC]

The issue here is at what point is the fuel consumption restrictive enough to modify player behavior.  If bases are only 25 miles apart.  Anything less than 2x will not modify behavior.

I am not sure if you followed this conversation at the beginning of the TOD thread, but htc came in on several engine management threads (dealing with engine overheating), and his opinion was something like, overheating is fake, non-realistic, and that the behavioral change we are all looking for could be accomplished by making fuel consumption an issue.

[Batz]

Only 8 min?

8 min represents nearly 1/3 of its flight time with the fuel mod at 2. That’s also 8 min at mil power; at reduced power you can get more then 8 out of it. What this does is add to combat time, 8 more min of combat is quite a bit. Its better then the 5 or 6 the Emil has now.

But again what behavior is modified with fuel mod at 2?

US planes still fly around at mil power "all day and night" (using your quote) while its planes like yaks, la, etc are the ones rationing. What will happen is folks won’t fly those planes and jump into something the 51.

So behavior hasn't changed, just more planes become hangar queens and diversity in the main diminishes.

If you had read those threads about engine management you would know I have several posts in each, all supportive of the premise. After flying regularly in the betas (everyday and I don't think I have seen you online in Ah2 yet) the reality is quite different.  The only planes really effected but such a scheme are already affected regardless if the fuel mod is 1.5 or 2. Look at the Emil numbers, you still fly at reduced power. As I have said all along in this thread.

Pyro didn’t say he was 100% opposed to eng overheating, here’s a quote of his:

Good points, there is a limit to how much we can use the fuel multiplier due to the fact that you can't scale altitude. Mainly, I think it get can get us better differentiation between something like long range fighters and point defense fighters.

And even though my arguments may make it seem otherwise, I'm really not dead set against using stuff like engine temp as a gameplay mechanism and do agree that it can feel more immersive if done decently. But I also have seen it in a form that I think decidedly takes away from gameplay by being way too restrictive by requiring you to fly your engine more than your plane. I mainly take issue with arguing it as a point of realism.

As I said I supported his view on this, but unfortunately the only planes affected are planes that are already rare in the main as is.

[Tilt]

I still have not read anything that answers my original points........

I will admit to being someone who enjoys flying Lavochkins and Yaks (or used to)........

I dont mind having a lower endurance than others.......I would love to be able to use the cruise and lower settings to save fuel.........

But flying tonight I have had to seek out defence only related combat!

On the two occasions I went in search of a fight with 100% fuel I climbed to 17K then went to cruise for a good part of a sector then came to combat well below half in the wing tanks..........

5 mins of combat (at wep and mil power) and I am having to break off for home...........

So my fun time is shortened......... my satisfaction is lowered and I would bet those i was fighting were not too pleased either when I turned and ran out of the fight..........  I know I have to leave early cos I am gonna be chased so no cruise control on my exit, I have to leave early enough to Mil power/WEP it home.

Was I being greedy stretching the combat time to 5 mins?

Is a sector too far to wander looking for combat?

Is that what HTC wish to sell?

Should I sacrifice my enjoyment and fight until I have to ditch?

Is that the new fuel model in action....play till we ditch?

Is a development away from arcadia to push us  ever further into it by the use of an anomolous arena setting?

and on the subject of Arcadia what will the horde think of this when they cant have the fun they want as long as they want it........is HTC gonna tell the horde this (the end effect) is an improvement?

At lower FBM's I am still gonna have to use cruise etc to conserve fuel........... I might even get the opportunity to use it!

My small tanked AC will still be disadvantaged due to proper range/weight considerations..........

Yet I will have the fuel to actually have decent combat time!!!

Which todate at FBM 2 I have not experienced in the planes I like to fly................

Are these going to be the "no fun planes" now?

I urge Pyro and HT to actually try these planes in the arena at these settings. Try cap'ing an enemy base in one and actually engaging combat more than a sector away from home.........

Frankly I have not seen a single valid arguement for having any other setting other than FBM = 1.

Even a much welcome anti fuel pork measure could be seen (in its method of application) as a minimalist  attempt to "paper over" cracks left by use of FBM = 2  and its effect on short legged AC.

In my view a much welcome improvement in the fuel consumption models (that must have used up valuable HTC time) has been corrupted in a very gamey way by the use of FBM = 2 to actually penalise some AC rather than give benefit to others.

[Batz]

So my fun time is shortened......... my satisfaction is lowered and I would bet those i was fighting were not too pleased either when I turned and ran out of the fight.......... I know I have to leave early cos I am gonna be chased so no cruise control on my exit, I have to leave early enough to Mil power/WEP it home.

Several us agree with you here...