Author Topic: Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?  (Read 7844 times)

Offline Batz

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #210 on: May 29, 2004, 09:50:50 PM »
In the same thread Pyro also said this,

Quote
Good points, there is a limit to how much we can use the fuel multiplier due to the fact that you can't scale altitude.


He’s implying that there’s some discussion and experimentation yet to take place before the issue get settled.

The fuel mod a few weeks ago was 2.25, now 2 hopefully it will be 1.75 or 1.5 at some point. Don't act us if you know what the final outcome will.

I suggested that you start being honest and quit lying to us. The fuel multiplier at 2 has nothing to do with realism. At 2 or 1.5 only some planes will practice “engine management”. A fuel mod at 1.5 doesn’t mean that the yak, la, 109e etc will be flying around at full power. I told you to do the math. These are the planes that be rationing their fuel at either setting. With the fuel mod at 2 or 1.5 the planes you fly will still be tooling around with just enough fuel to allow them to "fly day and night" at mil power being “gamey dweebs” (your quote).

Until you find a way to apply what Pyro is talking about equally to all planes and allow a decent amount of combat time then you have no business claiming 1.5 is less "real" then 2.0 because neither are.

Offline bozon

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #211 on: May 30, 2004, 12:26:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
How is it realistic for you and I to fly about on MIL and WEP, never worrying about fuel or engine managment?

How is it realistic that Bf109s, Tiffies, Yaks, Hurris, Fw190s, P-40s, Lachovkins and Spits have to fiddle with engine managment and P-51s, A6Ms, Mossies, N1Ks, P-38s, F6Fs, P-47s and F4Us don't?

yes they do, unless they want to fly with their entire 300+ gallons fuelload. sure, you can load up 75% in P-51, mossie and P38 and never think about running out of fuel, but it's like flying with the 2*500lb bombs inside the mossie's belly. dead weight.

these planes CAN forget about fuel management at the cost of flying heavy, or manage their fuel like everybody else. loading 200 extra gallons of fuel to allow this, is loading 2000lbs more. If anything, this makes the fuel heavy planes even heavier, relatively, unless they too manage the fuel.

the true problematic planes are the yaks and La5/7. No DT and gas tank the size of a beer can,  makes them barely playable in FBM=2. to allow a little more use for these FBM should be lowered BY A LITTLE. 1.5 should be enough (perhaps lower for the larger maps).

Bozon
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Offline Karnak

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #212 on: May 30, 2004, 12:49:50 AM »
bozon,

In the Mossie, I can't speak to the P-51D, 25% is not enough regardless of how I manage my fuel and 50% is enough for me to ignore fuel management.
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Offline Batz

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #213 on: May 30, 2004, 01:08:43 AM »
Bozon,

That is not accurate, if the 51 ups with 75% fuel and climbs to alt and flies to a base he has burnt fuel, if he feels he is too heavy he can take less fuel or take off further back or climb higher or stick to bore and zzzzz until he burns fuel weight. The impact of a lowered fuel mod isn’t that it will force planes like the 51 to fly and fight heavier, those choices remain with the player.

We also need to consider that the 51 can run at any moment not only is he fast enough to get away he's has enough fuel to continue running until his pursuer is out of gas. Also, he is never forced to fly at a lower power setting. As erg accuses me of wanting to fly “all day and all night at mil power”, however it’s the p51 that you will see doing this.

I read above where you claim certain planes are over used, (la7s for instance) well look how many deaths the 51 has  every tour and compare that to how many were produced and then do the same for the yaks and 109s...

There were far more planes like the yaks and 109s in ww2 then 51s, they had more kills and were used in as many roles as the 51.

I don’t subscribe to the term "over used". Fly what you want but if we use your terms we can apply that same standard to many other planes.

Most people in this game have no clue about the eastern front. Those battles in the east were epic both in the air and on the ground.

When folks refer to 109s or yaks as simply interceptors or point defense fighters it just goes to show how very little they know. 109s flew everything from escort to jabo to sweeps to defense. The LW didn't need planes with 6 hours of fuel, the US did.

The whole idea that if yaks or la7s or spits or the typhie or whatever plane has more the 30 min of fuel at mil power is unrealistic is just pure non-sense and completely irrational considering other game play decisions made to in regards to the main.

How many fluffers do you see dive-bombing fleets in formation? Or doing 3k suicide runs across a field?

When folks then say well the la7 is over used so it should be limited to 21 minutes of fuel it is just asinine. Not only does it diminish diversity but alienates a whole section of players that don’t play the late war run and die game.

It’s those planes, the spits the yaks and the la7s that make the fight fun. With few exceptions the f4us, p51s, jugs etc are just suicide jabos or timid runners.

Heading into a furbal of 20 spits, la7s and yaks is down right fun. Suffering through a 15 min half arsed p51 bore 'n' zzzz "attack" is utterly boring...

The thought of main full of these types of planes hardly makes it attractive....

The main ought to be a sandbox where all gather and have a good time.


Karnak at mil power and 25% fuel the p51 has 13 min of fuel with the FBM at 2.

Offline Replicant

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #214 on: May 30, 2004, 03:59:04 AM »
I agree with your comments Batz!

Also if airfields are too far apart, or limited fuel, and you want to fly Jabo then all you're going to see is:-

P51D
P38L
F6F
maybe F4U

I can't imagine seeing many other Jabo planes, perhaps a Spitfire IX heavy.

I would imagine that players up more Jabo aircraft than Fighter sweep/interceptor aircraft, wouldn't you?

So, fuel, base distances, altitude of bases etc., is a key point, because if these are on the limits of most aircraft capabilities then you're just going to force people into a select few aircraft.  I know for sure that engaging P51s all day is going to be boring as hell.
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Offline zorstorer

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« Reply #215 on: May 30, 2004, 05:09:07 AM »
CC Batz seems all I kill other than Panzers and Ostwinds is the P-51.  I can't imagine the MA will be much fun if I see even more of them :(  Also because of the average P-51's pilots LOVE for the "one pass then running home" tactic (if you can call it that) about the only plane to catch the runstangs in is the La7 (or other short legged birds).  I now fear the AH2 Classic more than ever.  I also agree with you Nexx gonna be a drab place to play indeed.  Also what about the IL2???  The Russians (unless I am WAY off) used them to bomb forward airfields.  So how much range will they have now?  Enough to reach those forward fields going over 150mph?  Just a side thought....

Offline GODO

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #216 on: May 30, 2004, 05:16:22 AM »
Lets define long range and then lets tune fuel burn mult. in accordance.

For example, if long range is flying 6 sectors scorting bombers and then rtb, then adjust FBM so that P51s can travel 12 sectors with 100% fuel and DTs.

This way, even short ledged planes will be able to run for 4 sectors.

Offline straffo

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #217 on: May 30, 2004, 08:49:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ergRTC
What was the T designed for?  Not how they used it. Really I am curious, I always thought it was a ground attack plane.  Its performance goes to pot over 10k both speed and climb.


Interdiction over front line, IL2 escort  and finally ground attack

Like all russian fighters.

I'm not interrested in the 9u because it was never used by the Normandie-Nďemen.

Offline ergRTC

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #218 on: May 30, 2004, 09:09:42 AM »
Why on earth do you think I am lying?

All I want is mil not to be the cruising speed.  Anything that accomplishes that is fine.  Do I have some hidden agenda that I dont know about?  Please let me know so I can enjoy giving you this anuerism.

Bozon makes some great points.

You guys just want to have the advantage of carrying 2000lbs of gas without having the disadvantage of carrying it.

Offline straffo

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #219 on: May 30, 2004, 09:13:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ergRTC
Why on earth do you think I am lying?


me ???? :confused:
Quote

All I want is mil not to be the cruising speed.  Anything that accomplishes that is fine.  

same for me

Quote
You guys just want to have the advantage of carrying 2000lbs of gas without having the disadvantage of carrying it.


again me ???? :confused:

That's what I'm against

Offline Batz

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #220 on: May 30, 2004, 09:46:21 AM »
Quote
All I want is mil not to be the cruising speed.


Because I read where you have typed that but I can’t believe you really think a fuel mod of 2.0 will accomplish that for everyone. Read the thread you quoted from. My replies are there,  I was agreeing with Pyro that if via the new "fuel scheme" and in conjunction with the fuel multiplier could create a main where planes don’t fly around at full power all the time then it would be a good thing.

But the reality is different. I then went through and explained that to you in detail. Because the fuel mod is at 2 it only means that planes like the yak and spits and las will be the ones rationing. The p51s and the like wont. The yaks the spits and the las will have extremely limited and artificially created combat time and the planes like the 51 wont.

In response you have called me a gamer who just wants to "fly around all day and night at full power without refueling” yet fail to acknowledge that is far from true. What I am to think then? You cant even take the time to do the math to see what the difference between 1.5 or 2 will be.

Either you are lying to yourself or to me....

The fuel mod at 1.5 or 2.0 isn’t real, neither creates a more real environment. The higher the fuel mod the less real it becomes, the less fun it becomes.

Quote
You guys just want to have the advantage of carrying 2000lbs of gas without having the disadvantage of carrying it.


That "advantage" is always there, regardless if the fuel mod is 1 or 10. The 109 will always carry less fuel and the fuel mod doesn’t change that. All the fuel mod does is set how long certain planes can fly. Unless your idea of “winning” a fight is to run around for the 8 min it takes until that “gamey” yak runs out of fuel.

I don’t why you can’t comprehend that, so yeah I will just assume you are lying about your motives.

Offline ergRTC

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #221 on: May 30, 2004, 10:05:15 AM »
Batz, you really do amaze me.  Is it horse blinders?  Inborn tunnel vision?  

oh, oh I know, you must work for the neo-cons.

Here it is in bullet points so as not to confuse you...

- people should not fly at mil all the time cause it is gamey

- the only way (so far) we can do this is fuel management

- If you want to haul around 2000lbs of fuel you can, but you will be flying around with 2000lbs of fuel.

Offline Batz

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #222 on: May 30, 2004, 10:16:37 AM »
You have no point...

You keep repeating things that are untrue, either on purpose or you are too stupid to realize it.

The fuel mod at 2.0 doesn't accomplish any of those things.

Offline 6GunUSMC

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #223 on: May 30, 2004, 10:59:12 AM »
I also have a warbirds account....  the only thing i hate about wb is the rolling plane set.   it is only 13.95/mo for WB2004/dawn of aces/aromored assault

Offline GScholz

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Why fuel burn is back to 2 ?
« Reply #224 on: May 30, 2004, 11:05:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ergRTC
- people should not fly at mil all the time cause it is gamey


They will no matter what you do with fuel management. People will just RTB sooner at MIL or WEP, and/or fly longer ranged planes like the P-51 and P-38. The Early war planes will be gone from the game.

You're trying to control human behaviour that cannot be controlled. Just like you can't stop the hordes, suicide porkers, 1000 ft level bombing, and all the other "gamey" behaviour in the MA. People will fly as fast as they can no matter what because in the MA jungle the high monkey with lots of E is the hunter, the low and slow monkey is the prey.

People will climb on MIL or WEP because that is the most efficient way to climb, then they will accelerate on MIL because with fields so close they are already close to the enemy, then they will engage and fight, and when fuel is getting low they will run for home as fast as they can. The fuel burn multiplier will just shorten the time people will actually fight.

NOBODY WILL USE FUEL MANAGEMENT IN THE MA BECAUSE IT IS A DISADVANTAGE.
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