Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004

[68falcon]

Ramzey,

    Eamiled you and have recieved a receipt of confirmation that the email was successful to your account. Have not received a reply. Can you contact me at http://www.ybej@optonline.net

[Easyscor]

Vladd?
ramsey?
artik!

I haven't even seen the rules but from this thread I've about decided to sign up for a Spit or 109.

[68falcon]

Easyscore,

          That is because there are no rules as of yet. Although some of the arguments here are worth exploring and we will. If you are interested in Allies contact me at http://www.ybej@optonline.net or are you going to be one of those Ju88 pilots that I will be hunting

[68falcon]

Ramzey,

         Your scoring idea seems sound to me. I have cut and pasted it into the Battle of Britain Command forum so that all CMs,COs and XOs are able to read and comment on it. Hopefully we will be able to get this into the rules or something close

[Easyscor]

Originally posted by ramzey
That can "force"  german fighters to defend bombers as during BoB 1940. NOt making free sweep at 35kft ;-)

This one issue, fighters at 35k, I agree is a problem in most events but it was solved in CAP by turning the radar on at the desired maximum altitude for both countries.  If some yahoo climbs too high, he shows up for everyone to see.  I wish this had been done in Ruhr Valley.

[Flossy]

Originally posted by ramzey
Helen , can i cal lyou Helga from now?;-)

LOL!    Anyway, I fly for whichever side has the [level] bombers, regardless of country.  

[Flossy]

Originally posted by artik
It just requires more work from CM/CO.

Don't you think the CMs have enough to do?  Not to mention having to re-check anyone who needs to reup due to crashing or discoing.....

It is good option IMO to reduce the defence ability of Ju88.

Yeah, it's not enough that a single fighter can often take out a formation of 3 in one pass.....  

[artik]

Maybe you right...........

It's my buff fobia. I prefere to met 1 vs 2-3 fighters and I'll have more chances to survie then attacking BUFFs.........

I have been even shut down easily trying to attack B5N. I'm not talking about something like B-26 or B-17 [ screaming and running away ].

[Easyscor]

Since I usually only fly bombers in these events, I’ll put forth my comments in this otherwise fighter centric thread.

In most of these events, the defenders know exactly when and where the bombers are going which is a major flaw IMO.  We solved part of that in Ruhr with the loosely defined short and mid range’ targets.

Add to that flaw the tendency to think of  bombers only as bait with some minor scoring roll and you fail to give due credit to the difficulty of delivering bombs on the target in organized scenarios.

One of the critical aspects to designing the next BoB is working around the mix of level bombers and jabo’s like the Stuka and the 110.  This is one of the things that went wrong with the previous scenario.  Level bombers and Jabos are two completely different critters when it comes to target selection and game play.  To be both realistic and playable, careful thought must be given to the size, hardness, placement and scoring of the targets.  Forget about 3,000 lb hangers.  That was never realistic and is a game play concession for the MA customer where there is a limited number of hangers at each base.  Hangers should start with a hardness of 100 to 200 lbs and be placed depending on the type of ‘bomber’ associated with the target.  Ack should play a major roll in insuring which bombing method is used on which targets.  You should set lots of defensive ack at the targets you want for the level bombers and little or no ack at the Jabo targets.  Because Flak is currently (as far as I know) tied to ack settings, care should be used not to put many flak guns on the map even though we all like crunchy flak.

All the rest of my comments assume there are two different target classes, one designed to be attacked by level bombers and the other class designed to be attacked by Jabos.  A 110 or Stuka would be committing suicide to attack the target set up for the level bombers and the Ju88s would not score enough ‘dead hangers’ if they went for the Jabo targets.

One scoring possibility brought up is the Ruhr method which counts the bombs dropped into a small area but there were many problems in Ruhr that were never fully worked out and it left the Allied command staff testing the terrain right up until the night before Frame 1 instead of coordinating and practicing their forces.  Another problem with the Ruhr method is that it doesn’t account for the difference between level bombers and Jabos.  It’s still a valid option but only if you designate different targets for the level bombers and the Jabos, and frankly, the game play is not vary satisfying.


I would favor another possibility closer to RL and build a terrain with small fields with lots of isolated generic(?) hangers and few ack for Jabo targets and exaggerate a simulated RL airfield factory complexes for the level  bombers with rows of bomber(?) hangers and lots of ack at large airfields.  Unlike the hangers at a small field or the Ports at Kurland, these hangers need to be in boxes like Guadalcanal but arranged in multiple 3x3 or 4x4 grids as a game concession so the bomb runs can be from any of 4 directions instead of only two like Guadalcanal.  This would simulate a large preexisting field with rows of permanent hangers and ‘plant buildings’ that look like hangers.  Several RL examples come to mind but almost any permanent airfield has rows of hangers along it’s boarders.  A single Ju88 pilot should be able to drop a stick of bombs and take 3 to 4 hangers in a single pass and a group should be able to take out all the hangers they need to for their part of the bombing point without breaking formation or being forced to fly the same approach each frame.

[Easyscor]

Falcon I'm undecided as yet and I can’t maintain the level of participation I have in the last two events.

If there's no achievable bomber point, like Kurland, or, if I read ramzey's scoring proposal right and it’s adopted, a Ju88 formation would be worth 18 points and a fighter worth 2, I'll just show up as a fighter walk-on for whichever side needs the numbers and not worry about scoring points.

Thanks for the invite.

[Seeker]

Random stuff:

1) The Ju88 belongs i the BoB; Artik; there's no question of it. As for Alt caps: they just cause arguments. Far better to be creative with arena settings than it is thinking of unenforceable rules.

2) Same goes for the idea of firing off one gun on the Ju88's. It's impractacle to enforce; which will lead to abuse; which leads to whine fests.

3) While the point about buff drivers rarely being given thier true worth in scenarios is valid; there's very rarely anything in events punishing them for poor accuracy. Bumping up target points and creativity with respect to targrt selection and design offer interesting variables; but shouldn't there be inaccuracy penalties of some sort too?

4) Lastly; has any thought been given to  the possibility of running a side swap event; as we used to do in AW? There are some events, notably the Battle of Britain; Ploesti and Pearl Harbour which are ostensibly so one sided as to be almost impossible to make a fair battle of with a rule set that even tries to come close to history. I always thought the idea of letting both sides try both roles and see which team makes a better job of planning and execution as a fighting force a sound way to make up for the iniquities of some set ups.

P.S. Has there been any hints of any new event facilities with the release of AHII? Anything new on squad management? Arena settings? Can the CM's set icon type yet?

[Vladd]

I'd just like to point out that in Kurland there was 1 level bomber unit in the whole event, with 7 available pilot slots. It was not filled. And as for bombing accuracy, even with areas to aim at in the Ruhr event many people still couldn't hit the target and misses were frequent.

This is not a new experience for a scenario. As far as a resolution goes,  Easy's target layout for the level bombers is probably worth a look, either that or go with area bombing again. Either way, experience says that most Ju88s will reach the target, even without escort (and that's also quite historical for the BoB).

So the problems I have with placing too much emphasis on rewarding successful bombing in this one is that:

A) The bombers will reach the target regardless

B) Most of the walkons manning them won't be able to hit anything, unless you make the targets REAL BIG.

And that is not to denigrate the experienced and capable buffers we have playing this game. It's just to point out that we really don't have enough of them. I wish it were otherwise

What I'd like to see is successful bombing maybe swinging an otherwise close result. But if the RAF (for example) get mullered in the air the LW shouldn't end up losing because the buffs missed the target. Conversely, if the K / D ratio runs in the RAF's favour, successfully bombing an installation should not deprive them of victory. It didn't in 1940.

[ramzey]

Falcon, email answered

For sure you guys can forget about bf110 as jabo. Its not happend during BoB , should be not happend in scenario.

My scoring idea its just raw idea, need soem work for sure.

Main idea is how to drag peoples to fly event, noty just play them every week.
Thats why we need this "little" help from HTC to rise gameplay by giving people variety of planes to fly

Easycore, good point with radar

[Batz]

For sure you guys can forget about bf110 as jabo. Its not happend during BoB , should be not happend in scenario.

Ramzey,

The 110C-4/b in Aces High was the same variant of 110 used by Erprobungsgruppe 210 in the Battle of Britain as a Jabo. This group also used jabo 109s. In fact I have a skin I was planning to do for this unit.

They flew many sorties against airfields and radar stations. They had many notable successes

See this book:

MESSERSCHMITT BF 110 BOMBSIGHTS OVER ENGLAND: Erprobungsgruppe 210 in the Battle of Britain

By John Vasco

ISBN:
0 7643 1445

Write up for the book...

The activities of Erprobungsgruppe 210 over southern England during the bitter fighting of summer 1940 are recorded here in depth.  The detailed text is divided into separate chapters, one for each of the months from July through October 1940 and one covering November 1940 through April 1941.  The comprehensive operational history provided in the text is accompanied by more than 280 original period photographs, most previously unpublished from the private collections of veterans of the unit, or their surviving relatives.  The extensive appendices include a complete damage/loss list from July 1940 to April 1941, technical information on the Me Bf 110C-6 and the Seilbomben, Flugbuch (Flight Book) entries and post-combat reports, and a complete set of color profiles of aircraft of the squadron.  Formed on July 1, 1940 Erprobungsgruppe 210 was given the task of operationally testing the standard fighters on charge with the Luftwaffe in new and different roles.  Their main role was the use of the Messerschmitt 109 and 110 as fighter-bombers, lacking both the level flight of the conventional bomber and the steep dive of the Stuka.  The mode of attack was the shallow dive, using only the standard Revi gunsight as a bombsight to line-up the target.  They were also the only unit in 1940 to operate the Messerschmitt Bf 110C-6, the version that carried a 30mm MG 101 Kanone in place of the standard 2 x 20mm Kanone.  Information is provided here on Seilbomben, a weapon which the unit would have used to black-out the electricity network in the south-east of England had an invasion taken place in 1940.  In filling a significant gap concerning Luftwaffe fighter-bomber raids over England during the Battle of Britain, and correcting the still-frequent inaccuracies which are to be seen in other written works concerning the unit, this book will appeal to the general reader, enthusiast and modeler alike.

Not only did this unit do Jabo but several pilots had 5 kills or more during BoB.

In the 1st Aces High event I had 2 units to fly as Erg 210 running Jabo missions.

I dont see why the Erg 210 shouldnt be a part of the upcoming BoB event.

I dunno what version of BoB some of read about but the ju88 was common (in fact on Aug 20th 302 Squadrons's first recorded kills during BoB were against 2 ju88s.)

110s and 109s did fly Jabo missions, Stukas were only apart fo BoB for short period before being withdrawn. Ju88s could really dive away and escape from Hurris and spits...
 
What kind of event of you all wanting?

ju87s at 10k after having sprayed out 75% of their ammo?

In fact the Ju87 should be dropped from the event after the 1st or 2nd frame...

The RAF won the last AH bob scenario.

I can provide a complete OOB for the LW for BoB and listing the number planes available to each group.

While jabo 110s and ju88s werent the "mainstay" of the Battle of Britain (Just like the D11 and B17 werent the mainstay of the "Ruhr"). They were there in large enough numbers and had such an impact on the battle that excluding them were be wrong.

Every one wishes AH had He-111s and Do17z and the 110C3 and Ju87B-2 but Ah doesnt. (FYI the reputation of the HE-111 was that of a plane tougher and harder to shoot down then either the Do17 or Ju88).

[B17Skull12]

ruhr was atc scenario for germany. rember allies had no radar over germany at the time:rolleyes:

btw this is at easy.