Could World War II Have Been Won...

[Horn]

Originally posted by Shuckins
My premise is that the modern populace, if transplanted to the time of Pearl Harbor, would not have had the stomach to sustain the type of casualties necessary to win that conflict.

Disagree.

You are basing your premise on the perspective of negative media reporting, that the current "generation" is soft because of the griping about us torturing prisoners and suffering setbacks in Iraq. As said above, resolve is the issue. We were angry at the Taliban and united as a country. I don't think any of us would have said no if asked to go to avenge the atrocity of 9/11.

I don't think any of us would say no to defending our shores from direct, deliberate attack from another nation state either. Iraq on the other hand, defies resolve except from the raving hawks here and elsewhere. We are not united as a country.

Using Iraq as the basis of judgement upon a whole "generation" is erroneous.

my .02

h

[lazs2]

'We may not be as tough as our Granddaddies were, but we can still beat the French.'


__________________

airhead... I bet even the french could whp chairboy.

lazs

[Charon]

A lot of good discussions. There's no doubt the depression generation was hardened by the experience. But... five years after WW2 there was the Korean War, which was hardly championed by the majority of America's Greatest Generation. Here's a good blurb on the homefront:

The American home front during the Korean War was far different. Following so close on the heels of World War II, the Korean War was not a popular war. Those who had experienced the hardships of the previous war were sick and tired of sacrifice, both in terms of sons lost in battle, as well as doing without and making do because there was a war going on. The president of the United States didn’t even want to mention the word “war”, so he called America’s involvement in the Korean hostilities a “police action.” This misnomer caused apathy among the public, so much so that generally only those families who had someone directly involved in the war actually cared that a war was, indeed, going on. “Where have you been, Mac?” was the question of the day when a veteran returned home from Korea. Then and now, the American people had no understanding of the significance of the Korean War, nor did they understand the horrors that were taking place in it or the hardships that our servicemen and women had to endure while serving in Korea.

If you’ve seen the Jimmy Stewart film “Strategic Air Command,” then you’ve seen an illustration of a similar resistance from members of the generation to being reactivated for the cold war mission. It’s one of the core messages of the film.

I just think Americans have a history of not going to war easily and will only spend the blood of their sons and now daughters willingly if the cause is clear and in some direct, easy to understand way measures up to the sacrifice expected. Hell, as it's been pointed out here, without the attack on Pearl harbor AND Germany's declaration of war on the US, we may never have become involved in WW2.

Charon

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by lazs2
airhead... I bet even the french could whp chairboy.
lazs

Hey lazs, are you confusing me with someone else?  I'm a card carrying NRA member, I love liberty and my country, and I don't suffer fools gladly.  I own two small businesses and I've taught myself electronics and mechanical skills because my high school didn't have funding for either.

Your last comment plus the suggestion that I'm some sort of socialist doesn't make sense, is this a case of mistaken identity?  Or do you just throw mud at people you disagree with?

If you're just making fun, that's cool, because I've done the same to you and your "fluffer vs. fighter' politics, but I just want to understand the context better.

[2stony]

Could you see people today if they were handed ration booklets and told they could only have so much gas, meat, etc.? The public would raise holy hell. Could you see a mother raising her children for 3-4 years by herself without marching on a government building to try and get her husband sent home? My mom raised three kids by herself from 42-45 while my dad was away and she didn't complain one bit. A long protracted war would never happen unless someone attacked U.S. soil in force.

[lazs2]

chair.. I was just messing with you.   I have followed your posts in the past but.. you seemed really defensive about the comparison between the WWII generation and todays soo...

Believe me.. the same was made of them and mine but I got to admit there is a lot of truth to it... they simply expected less from life.   They also had beliefe systems that, while not allways maybe 100% correct, served them well.  

The biggest difference tho between them and even my generation is that they took more responsibility for their own actions...  It wasn't someone elses fault that needed to be sued..   I believe that earlier generations than them were too far the other way and concerned too much with mere survival.

It is apparent to me that the pendulum has swung too much the other way and we are pretty spoiled lot, my generation and yours.

It's a good life these days but we can't hold a candle to the greatest generation for their sacrafice and courage.

lazs

[Pongo]

Originally posted by Shuckins
...by our current generation and with our present Congress and Executive Administration in charge?  How would they have reacted to the military disasters of early 1942?

Shuckins/Leggern

I dont know. But it certainly  could not have been won by the current administration.

[capt. apathy]

When I was a kid, adults used to bore me to tears with their tedious
diatribes about how hard things were when they were growing up.   What with
walking twenty-five miles to school every morning uphill both ways through
year 'round blizzards carrying their younger siblings on their backs.  To
their one-room schoolhouse where they maintained a straight-A average,
despite their full-time, after-school, job at the local textile mill (where
they worked for 35 cents an hour just to help keep their family from
starving to death!).

   And I remember promising myself that when I grew up there was no way
 in hell I was going to lay a bunch of crap like that on kids about how hard I
 had it and how easy they've got it!


However....


   Now that I've reached the ripe old age of thirty-five, I can't help but look around and notice the youth of today.  You've got it so F’n easy!  I mean, compared to my childhood, you live in a damned Utopia!  And I hate to say it but you kids today don't know how good you've got it!

   I mean, when I was a kid we didn't have The Internet.  We wanted to know something, we had to go to the damned library and look it up ourselves!

   And there was no email! We had to actually write somebody a letter-with a pen!  then you had to walk all the way across the street and put it in the F’n mailbox and it would take like a week to get there!

   And there were no MP3s or Napsters!  You wanted to steal music, you had to go to the damned record store and shoplift it yourself!  Or we had to wait around all day to tape it off the radio and the DJ'd usually talk over the beginning and screw it all up!

   You want to hear about hardship? You couldn't just download porn! You had to bribe some homeless dude to buy you a copy of "Hustler" at the 7-11! It was either that or jackoff to the lingerie section of the JC Penney catalog!

    Those were your options! We didn't have fancy crap like Call Waiting! If you were on the phone and somebody else called they got a busy signal! And we didn't have fancy Caller ID Boxes either! When the phone rang, you had no idea who it was it could be your boss, your mom, a collections agent, your drug dealer, you didn't know!!! You just had to pick it up and take your
chances, mister!

   And we didn't have any fancy Sony Playstation video-games with high-resolution 3-D graphics! We had the Atari 2600!  With games like "Space Invaders" and "Asteroids" and the graphics sucked ass!   Your guy was a little square! You had to use your imagination!

    And there were no multiple levels or screens, it was just one screen forever!  You could never win, the game just kept getting harder and faster until you died!       Just like LIFE!

    When you went to the movie theater there no such thing as stadium seating! All the seats were the same height! A tall guy sat in front of you, you were screwed!

    And sure, we had cable television, but back then that was only like 20 channels and there was no onscreen menu! You had to use a little book called a TV Guide to find out what was on! And there was no Cartoon Network! You could only get cartoons on Saturday morning... ...D'ya hear what the hell I'm saying!?! We had to wait ALL WEEK, you spoiled little bastards!

    That's exactly what I'm talking about! You kids today have got it too easy, You're spoiled.

 I swear to God! You guys wouldn't last five minutes back in 1984!!

[midnight Target]

Bravo!!!!

[2stony]

Apathy, since I'm 16 years older than you, I had it even tougher. Our first TV was B&W and you had to get up to change the channels and there were only 4 or 5 stations you could get. There was no FM radio and the phones all had dials, not push buttons. Out of all the schools I attended I never took the bus or drove a car(even in high school). MickyDs was the "only" fast food resturant in our town and there was no home delivery of pizza. There were no video games of any sort, only pinball machines at the bowling alley. Foosball hadn't even been evented yet. So, yes, the kids of today are spoiled, and in my opinion, the majority of them don't have any respect for anything or anyone. Don't get me wrong, there are a "few" good kids out there.

[capt. apathy]

actually I can't take credit for that rant.  a friend of mine sent it to me about 5 years ago.  

cable was available when I was a kid (moved out in 84), but not at our house.
we had a remote though, well my dad did.  he'd call me into the room and tell me to change the channel.

we also lived right on the edge of our school district.  so I went to school in one town but all of our untiles where from the next towns service district.  not a problem for most things but the only friends who's houses I could call (without long distance charges) were the ones who's houses I could see from the back porch.

I don't feel I had it hard.  I had a lot of work to do (3+ hours Sun-Fri, 7am to 4pm on most Saturdays).  but I see some of the crap my kids have had to go through, and I don't envy them a bit.  

life is complicated for kids now, to many rules, regulations or committees getting involved.  it was simpler when I was a kid, starting to get complicated, more complicated than it was for my father, but nothing like my kid has to deal with.

you have girls being suspended on drug charges for bringing mydol in their purse, you have D.A.R.E. programs telling kids they are hero's if they talk publicly about their parents private life.  we have 18yr old kids in our state penn who are doing 7 years for a mutually instigated fist-fight where neither party pressed charges(I guess the guy I know is 22 now, only 3 more years until he gets out).

when I was a kid, as long as what you were doing didn't cause any problems for other people (or at least if they weren't so mad that dad had to hear about it), you where pretty much OK.  life was fairly straight forward, don't let your life be a problem for anyone else, work hard, and take care of your family before you worry about what you'd like.  I would love to get back to a place (maybe there never was a place, but I was just too young to know it) were that was enough.  were a guy could be a stand-up guy and still get ahead.  seems like lately only the bellybutton kissers and political types get ahead anymore.  honesty and directness are serious career liability's,  even in construction trades, which I was initially drawn too because it was one of the few work opportunities left were you're worth was judged on your work and your character, and not so much on who you played golf with or what clubs you belong to.

I grew up in the last few days of the "John Wayne code"-
I won't be wronged
I won't be insulted
and I won't be laid a hand on
I don't do these things to other men, and I won't tolerate them being done to me.

it seemed a reasonable code, and if somebody violated it, it was reasonable grounds to kick their ass.  you'd do it, and stay there until the cops or the teachers showed up.  you'd admit to it and tell them why.  then that would be the end of it.  he had it coming after all, "probably good for him, he might learn some manners along the way".

 today you'd do serious time in prison for enforcing 'the code'.

I'd take extra work and physical discomfort, to do away with all the crap entangling our lives today.  I think all things totaled, grampa had it easier than my kid.

[2stony]

One thing I'd like to see changed in schools are the dress codes. Kids can pretty much wear what they want in public schools as long as they're not naked or grossly offending anyone. I believe lax dress codes gives kids the idea that they can do what they want. When I was in school teachers could swat kids with paddles(which I don't entirely agree with)and that put the "fear of life" into most of them and they didn't cross the line at school. Now if you swatted a kid you'd probably end up in prison for 1st degree assault.

[Airhead]

Originally posted by lazs2
chair.. I was just messing with you.   I have followed your posts in the past but.. you seemed really defensive about the comparison between the WWII generation and todays soo...

Believe me.. the same was made of them and mine but I got to admit there is a lot of truth to it... they simply expected less from life.   They also had beliefe systems that, while not allways maybe 100% correct, served them well.  

The biggest difference tho between them and even my generation is that they took more responsibility for their own actions...  It wasn't someone elses fault that needed to be sued..   I believe that earlier generations than them were too far the other way and concerned too much with mere survival.

It is apparent to me that the pendulum has swung too much the other way and we are pretty spoiled lot, my generation and yours.

It's a good life these days but we can't hold a candle to the greatest generation for their sacrafice and courage.

lazs

Good answer, Lazs- so no wonder my wife held your jacket instead of mine when  we got in that fight.

[Swager]

Actually we would not of went to war.

Japan had no oil,  they had to import all of theirs, so there would of been no interest there.

Germany had to conquer territory to get oil.  Well, come to think of it, the present administration might have gone to war with Germany to get ahold of the oil fields that Germany posessed.  

Who knows, maybe they could have Germany decrease production or decrease export so they could of raised gas prices to ensure bigger profits for the oil companies.

 Huh?  Good Question!

[Lizking]

We didn't need to war on Germany for the oil, we had just found it in Arabia.