A new WW2 movie?

[Charon]

There is no excuse for what the Nazi's did but their support and rise to power was largely due to the harsh conditions imposed on Germany by France and England.

If you look at German political patterns of the era, the rise of Nazism was largely linked to the start of the worldwide depression (economic fears) and fears of Communism. Before the depression, but well after Versailles, no real broad Nazi support. As the Depression starts, things swing notably towards the Nazis with the added benefit of nazi "order” for a people at the time unaccustomed to the messiness of democracy. Versailles, the Jews, [some would also say the Communist threat] were supporting issues, and ones that often appealed only to select demographics. But, the Nazi propaganda machine was brilliant at being all things to all people and adapting the specific message accordingly.

Ironically, many of the beneficial economic infrastructure programs Hitler took credit for were already started by the Social Democrats.

Charon

[Habu]

Yes you are right but I have to think the treaty made it worse in Germany than if a more enlightened treaty had been imposed.

The effects of the worldwide depression were much worse in Germany than the would have been without the war reparations and restrictions on their economy.

The rise of the communists in eastern Europe was a big factor as well but only in that the Germans could not rearm to defend themselves.

The years following the war were very bad in Germany but they were licking their wounds and had pretty much lost the best part of a male generation in the war. No one wanted to support a party that would maybe provoke a new war. But a new generation came along and look what happened. They did not remember the horrors of the first war but they lived though the aftermath of the treaty and the economic havoc of the depression as well.

[straffo]

any of you opened an history book and looked at the 1870 war ?

Un traité de paix humiliant la France

Le traité de paix préliminaire franco-allemand, signé à Versailles le 26 février, fut confirmé par le traité de Francfort (10 mai 1871). La France dut céder les trois départements de l'Alsace-Moselle (qui constituèrent jusqu'en 1919 la province allemande d'Alsace-Lorraine) et payer une indemnité de guerre de 2 000 millions de francs. Les troupes allemandes occupèrent une partie de la France jusqu'à ce que le total des indemnité fut versé en septembre 1873.

Le traité de Francfort, est signé le 10 mai 1871 et met fin à la guerre franco-allemande de 1870-1871.

Ce traité conclut des négociations entamées par Adolphe Thiers le 26 février 1871 avec le chancelier Otto von Bismarck. Après les défaites de Sedan et de Metz, Paris est assiégé.

Bismarck propose des conditions de paix impliquant la cession à l'Allemagne de l'Alsace et d'une partie des départements lorrains et un indemnité de guerre de 6 milliards de francs. Les négociations permettent à Thiers de réduire l'indemnité à 5 milliards et de conserver Belfort contre l'entrée de l'armée allemande à Paris, entrée effectuée le 1er mars, le jour où l'Assemblée nationale ratifie les principes de la paix.

Ce traité va polariser la politique française pour les quarante années qui suivront sur les relations entre la France et l'Allemagne. En effet, si les 5 milliards furent rapidement réunis, la reconquête de l'Alsace-Lorraine, des « provinces perdues », va devenir une obsession qui aboutira au déclenchement de la première guerre mondiale.

[Charon]

I can agree with your points, Habu, but I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree with the level of direct influence Versailles played.  

The whole post war world economy was a house of cards in Europe, with German reparations helping France and England pay war debt to the US, and the US investing in Germany. You remove US investment and house collapses and everybody suffers (and statistically with some general degree of parity - the figures for unemployment and production loss are quite similar for the US and Germany). Then there was the adherence to the Gold Standard and its impact during this period on Germany, Great Britain, France and the United States. This may be the key factor in the depth and severity of the depression for any particular nation.

There was a lot of hardship and fear during this period. Facsism (and to some extent Communism) saw growing support in many countries including the US and Britain. However, I would blame a lack of experience with democracy and a desire for a new "Kaiser" with the rise of Nazism, IMO, my $0.2 etc.

Charon

Wow, Nash Hijack award in the works here

Tom Cruise really Suxxor. So is Vin Diesel. Saw a bunch of trailers this weekend for upcomiong films and several looked great until it got to the leading man.