Author Topic: Things that make ya go "hmmmmmmmmmmm"  (Read 1690 times)

Offline Toad

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Things that make ya go "hmmmmmmmmmmm"
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2004, 01:14:39 AM »
Not with the US Army massing on the borders and Bush making it clear that it was comply or lose your country.

Either way, if he had them or didn't, it doesn't make sense to oppose the UNSC resolutions and give the inspectors a hard time.

Well, it doesn't make sense to anyone able to realistically assess the outcome of non-compliance.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sandman

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Things that make ya go "hmmmmmmmmmmm"
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2004, 01:18:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Not with the US Army massing on the borders and Bush making it clear that it was comply or lose your country.


You're jumping way ahead... 10+ years.


By then, he's trapped in the lie. He can't prove he destroyed it because it never existed and he can't use it to stop the advance of the U.S.
sand

Offline Toad

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Things that make ya go "hmmmmmmmmmmm"
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2004, 01:36:23 AM »
It doesn't matter what time frame you use. His decision making doesn't make sense.

He goes into Kuwait thinking it won't be opposed. (Glaspie notwithstanding.) The whole world agrees that he should get out. The UNSC agrees to take military action... he still doesn't get out. Jebus Cripes.. the UNSC never agrees on ANYTHING! He still misread that. His decision to stay makes no sense.

Then after getting severely slapped around, he still continues to play games. How EASY it would have been to comply. No sanctions, no "oil for food" games. He could have ruled Iraq forever.

But nooooooooooooooooooo. He decides to bait the UN. 12 years of it. Finally the ultimatum comes yet again. Did he learn anything the first time? Nooooooooooooooooooooo.

His decisions don't make sense in light of what kept happening to him.

If you wish to believe they do, fine by me. I simply can't see it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Pongo

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Things that make ya go "hmmmmmmmmmmm"
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2004, 10:06:07 AM »
Toad. What the US had shown is that it would not accept any version of compliance. Sorry you dont see that.  He had been trying to prove to the US for years he had no WMD and the US had been threatening veto on any resolution to show that he had dissarmed so the sanctions could be removed.
Its only confusing cause your tying to make it work with your goverments version of reality. What really happend is pretty strait forward.
Saying that the majority of Iraqis are getting on with thier lives is like saying that the majority of americans are getting on with thier lives so Iraqis have won. Its only the people that are fighting that matter. And its lots of Iraqis that are fighting. If you dont accept that, over a year after the end of hostilities...then your being pretty silly.

Offline Rude

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Things that make ya go "hmmmmmmmmmmm"
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2004, 11:11:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Toad. What the US had shown is that it would not accept any version of compliance. Sorry you dont see that.  He had been trying to prove to the US for years he had no WMD and the US had been threatening veto on any resolution to show that he had dissarmed so the sanctions could be removed.
Its only confusing cause your tying to make it work with your goverments version of reality. What really happend is pretty strait forward.
Saying that the majority of Iraqis are getting on with thier lives is like saying that the majority of americans are getting on with thier lives so Iraqis have won. Its only the people that are fighting that matter. And its lots of Iraqis that are fighting. If you dont accept that, over a year after the end of hostilities...then your being pretty silly.


You really should just be honest....you hate Bush and disagree with his policies....nothing good coming from this Admins actions or policies would ever warrant a good word from your lips.

Your hard hearted and small in character....to hate a man you've never even met doesn't make any sense to me.

Offline Charon

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Things that make ya go "hmmmmmmmmmmm"
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2004, 12:10:06 PM »
Logically Toad, you are absolutely correct. He likely could have stopped the invasion by completely buckling under. Resistance linked to a WMD program would be a logical conclusion to draw. Now, the US was in no mood to take yes for an answer, but had he started the ball rolling at the earliest stages Bush might not have had much of a choice.

I suppose though, just to speculate, that a scenario involving not having WMD but still resisting inspections could be seen as an internal or regional power/weakness issue. Perhaps it was better to risk the resolve of the US rather than risk appearing weak to a potential rival or to the people, who had been suffering but somewhat united in an “us against them” kinda way (remember, Iraq didn’t lose the 1st war according to SH). He also wanted to be a regional leader of the Arab world at some point (apparently), and weakness does not play into that very well. I’m sure there is some degree of ego involved too. Perhaps, he’s just a lot better at understanding how to rule Iraq than how to operate in the international realm, made some very poor assumptions and gross miscalculation on the US and the UN and had no one around to disagree with him.

It’s also hard to imagine him giving up WMD for those very reasons. But, it’s also similarly hard to imagine him developing nukes then giving them to some Islamic fundamentalist group, instead of using them as regional leverage in his future goals. I suppose at some point down the road we will know what happened.

Charon
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 12:17:47 PM by Charon »

Offline Toad

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Things that make ya go "hmmmmmmmmmmm"
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2004, 12:10:09 PM »
There just aren't that many Iraqis actively fighting. If you dont accept that, over a year after the end of hostilities...then your being pretty silly.

As for "compliance", it wasn't only the US that felt there was a definite lack of "compliance". There was a unanimous resolution on it as you will recall.

Sorry it all doesn't fit your version of what happened but it's a matter of record.

Quote
Holding Iraq in “material breach” of its obligations under previous resolutions, the Security Council this morning decided to afford it a “final opportunity to comply” with its disarmament obligations, while setting up an enhanced inspection regime for full and verified completion of the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991).



By the unanimous adoption of resolution 1441 (2002), the Council instructed the resumed inspections to begin within 45 days, and also decided it would convene immediately upon the receipt of any reports from inspection authorities that Iraq was interfering with their activities.  It recalled, in that context, that the Council had repeatedly warned Iraq that it would face "serious consequences" as a result of continued violations.


If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

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Things that make ya go "hmmmmmmmmmmm"
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2004, 12:11:35 PM »
Good thing we invaded iraq!!!!