Author Topic: Do we need ammo indicators???  (Read 1500 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2004, 09:31:17 PM »
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   While "not" showing the ammo counters would make things more realistic, I believe that it would also cause more people to "RTB" before they need to, which would result in less engagements and fighting.

We should be asking for things that encourage fighting and engagements ... not preventing them ... intentionally or unintentionally.

Leave the ammo counters alone.


 It is always possible to use a different method of gameplay concession.

 Like, the ammo counters are removed, but instead a warning light is implemented  - you can't track how much ammo you spend, but the warning light will come on when the ammo load is down to a certain level.. something like less than 50 rounds total of MGs and Cannons combined..

Offline Tilt

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2004, 06:57:15 AM »
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I but the warning light will come on when the ammo load is down to a certain level.. something like less than 50 rounds total of MGs and Cannons combined..


If tracers were used to give this indication AH could use them too.

However we would still need some method of showing which weapon sets were selected. This would probably be a row of lights (or virtual toggles) and they could be used to give the feed back you refer to.

It could be moved to the clip board........ just as E6B is there as a sort of pilot note.......

I would not remove them just for the sake of doing so....if it meant that we can have better cockpit layouts then I would be all for it and only keep them for those AC that had them.

Re its effect on game play............I notice myself that I am less diciplined with ammo usage with a full clip than a low one.......I would agree that lack of an exact count would cause me to be more cautious.
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Offline Westy

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2004, 11:15:34 AM »
"There's no practical limit to the realism we could have!"

Riiiiiight.  So since extremes can't be modelled then developers should not bother with any nor should players bother to pursue realistic features either.

How inflexiuble, conservative and "unchanging."   Why that line of beleif is downright AW-ish.  (And we all know where AW is don't we....)




"stick to boxed sims. any MMPOG *is* exactly that, a game. "

  If that was the truth then we'd be playing wire framed "planes" ala F-15 circa 1986.  




"Don't you remember this? "Players are rats.""

 Sure do :)  But IMO that apples to scenarios and people trying to find ways to "game"  them to "win"   by any means rattily possible.  (In AH players are "dolts" btw)

Offline Rino

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2004, 05:30:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
"There's no practical limit to the realism we could have!"

Riiiiiight.  So since extremes can't be modelled then developers should not bother with any nor should players bother to pursue realistic features either.

How inflexiuble, conservative and "unchanging."   Why that line of beleif is downright AW-ish.  (And we all know where AW is don't we....)




"stick to boxed sims. any MMPOG *is* exactly that, a game. "

  If that was the truth then we'd be playing wire framed "planes" ala F-15 circa 1986.  




"Don't you remember this? "Players are rats.""

 Sure do :)  But IMO that apples to scenarios and people trying to find ways to "game"  them to "win"   by any means rattily possible.  (In AH players are "dolts" btw)


     AW was killed because EA didn't want to bother supporting it.
There was still a strong player base right up until the end.  It just
wasn't enough to interest the suits.  Since you had melted down
long before this happened, I guess you could have missed the
particulars.

     How exactly does removing ammo counters improve the game?
There are tradeoffs for realism/playability in any sim.  Most of the
"make it more difficult for the hell of it" crowd seem to forget a
great deal.  For example, how many fly with a HOTAS setup in
here?  I worked on fighters in the mid-80s and hotas was just
in it's infancy on the birds I worked.  In the 1940s you had to
reach down and flip switches, turn knobs, pull levers to control
things like trim and the prop.

     On your computer you can press a single button and have it
perform several functions at once.  I don't hear many complaints
that the trim controls work too quickly, or the engine starts too
fast.

     All I am saying is have a little perspective.  I am certainly not
against improvements, far from it.  I'd like to have a rear view
mirror available to the aircraft that had one..I also realize this
is not a priority here.
80th FS Headhunters
PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline Kweassa

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2004, 06:48:18 AM »
Quote
How exactly does removing ammo counters improve the game?
There are tradeoffs for realism/playability in any sim. Most of the
"make it more difficult for the hell of it" crowd seem to forget a
great deal. For example, how many fly with a HOTAS setup in
here? I worked on fighters in the mid-80s and hotas was just
in it's infancy on the birds I worked. In the 1940s you had to
reach down and flip switches, turn knobs, pull levers to control
things like trim and the prop.

On your computer you can press a single button and have it
perform several functions at once. I don't hear many complaints
that the trim controls work too quickly, or the engine starts too
fast.

All I am saying is have a little perspective. I am certainly not
against improvements, far from it. I'd like to have a rear view
mirror available to the aircraft that had one..I also realize this
is not a priority here.



 The realism in this case does not oppose the gameplay aspect of it - the realism IS gameplay.

 The very fundamental heart of the whole simulation genre itself relies on reality - a simulated sensation which is in close resemblance to the real-life counterpart aircraft,  is practically the only edge these types of games hold, over all other else. No matter what someone wants to say about "gameplay", the goal of simulation is to make it as real as it gets.

 Now, there are some problems inherent in trying to simulate reality.

 For instance, we can't expect a gamer to go through weeks and months of flight training to up a simulated aircraft.

 Nor can we expect them to create custom cockpits looking like the real thing, having to operate all the switches and stuff.

 Sometimes, the limitations of current technology make it absolutely necessary to implement some types of concessions. The icon system immediately jumps into mind.

 However, aside from that which cannot be averted, all else should be as close to the real thing as it gets, at least, up to the point which the developers can handle.

 Like I said we don't expect people to take weeks and months of training to just operate a plane. But we do expect people to gain weeks, months, years of experience to become good in this game - why?

 Because, how the game is played out -  the essentials that follow within the boundaries of realism AS gameplay(not realism VERSUS gameplay), itself, is something that cannot be yielded. Yielding in something like that, results in something like relaxed realism arenas, external views, unlimited ammo... - you name it.

 Ammo counters are the same thing - ammo counters are one of the factors which determine how realistic the gunnery can become. Maintaining strict discipline with the trigger takes practice and experience. As you cannot keep accurate track of your ammo laod round-per-round, you are expected to conserve it and save it until you are absolutely sure you can hit it. You have to keep a general sense of how much firing time your plane has, how much you have fired so far and so on.

 It makes up an important part of the process of learning air-to-air combat.

 Not to mention, it also distinguishes individual characteristics of certain types of planes from others - some planes are more advanced and pilot-friendly in the internal systems(such as ammo counters, automated controls, better cockpit layout and etc etc..) compared to others. Having an ammo counter is a relative advantage which one type of plane has, but the other does not.

 The upper mentioned factors, are realism issues which make up gameplay, not deterr it.

 Ofcourse, once one gets used to all the wonderful crutches a game has to offer, one may think differently about  'realism'.

 Heck, why do we even need stalls and limited ammo at all?

Offline Westy

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2004, 08:08:21 AM »
"AW was killed because EA didn't want to bother supporting it. "

  AW was dead & dying LONG before EA shut it down.


"There was still a strong player base right up until the end. "

 Yes there was a small, loyal player base. but it was not strong, vibrant nor growiing.  And most of all it was not profitable in the least.


"It just wasn't enough to interest the suits."

Nor was there interests from the growing numbers of peopel gettin onto the internet and who would be interested in playing in a WWII aircombat- flight sim/game. Fact was AW was not growing while FA, AH and WB's WERE.  And as for the suits?  Like DUH! No fooling?  It wasn't making any money in the least so why would ANY suit from yet one more bloated corporation to own AW think highly of it.  Especially since the software was old, badly outdated and so far behind the competition that it was not attracting the necessary players for status quo let alone grow?  


"Since you had melted down long before this happened, I guess you could have missed the particulars."

Melt down? bwaha.   Baloney. No meltdown. I simply saw the what was coming while folks like you wailed about yet another "dweeb" crying about the sky falling  and then  stuck your head in the sand chanting " nope, nope nope. all is well here!" to yourselves.

  The only one who's "off" on the particulars is you. AW was on critical life support since at least 94 (never made a dime before and never made one after). Jjust read the brutally honest eulogies Dok and BB wrote if you don't like the words I use and if you still can;t recall the facts reread the Kesmai people pointing fingers at each other and telling it like it really was in Bigweek a couple of years ago.

  And as for AW4?  Even the inside people like GE basically said it would have been a pale contender in comparison to AH.  

 Poor attempt at historical revisionism Rhino. Must be those rose colored, democrat glasses you see through.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2004, 08:18:50 AM by Westy »

Offline Crumpp

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2004, 07:29:04 AM »
Who really cares about how AW died?

Especially since we really need "Homing Ammunition".

Since we will not be able to handle using Metric and Imperial units together and need to have ammo counters I would like to make one other request.


Can we have "homing ammunition".  This will help out the poor shots such as myself.  See it will level the playing field so that new players will be able to score kills right off the runway.  You could scale the homing accuracy based on the time in the game.  The more you fly the less "homing" ability you ammo has to offer.

See newbies could just sit on the runway holding the trigger down and score kills within a few sectors.  This would definately attract more players.  

  Once they learned to take off then we could reduce their homing range a little at a time...

LOL

Crumpp

Offline Hylacon

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2004, 02:28:26 PM »
There seems to be some people for and some people against the current accurate Ammo counters so why don't HiTech change it to an approximation like the approximations they use for the distance that a plane is from you (I find the new system annoying and prefered the exact distance counter).

This would mean you could keep the current selected weapon boxes and the ammo read out box next to it but in the case of ammo you could have several steps such as 600, 500, 400, 300, 200, 150, 100, 50 bullets left with it getting slightly more accurate as you get towards the bottom of the scale (50 bullet intervals instead of 100).

This would mean that there would be:
 - no accurate measurement for 'realism'
 - but an approximation for people who want an ammo indicator
 - it would mean you wearn't entirely sure when you were going to run out of bullets but you'ld have an idea
 - a good way of NOT allowing the NME to know when your low on ammo

Of course inorder for this to work for cannons the 'seperators' would need to be different and i think there should still be an exact indicator for bombs because it wouldn't be hard for the bombardier (or whatever his proper name is) to count how many bombs he saw fallingthrough his sight.  (also he'ld know how many times he'd pressed the button).

Therefore i think this would be a good system to use to please everyone (or at least it would be a good compromise)

Offline J_A_B

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2004, 03:04:43 PM »
I'm surprised that Westy doesn't view AW as superior to AH in this particular regard.  After all, AW's ammo counter was far less acccurate than AH's and only showed your approximate ammo load for ONE set of guns (whichever had the longest firing duration).

On an unrelated side note, since AH and WB's have been "Growing" for so long, how long ago is it that they passed that other game's subscription base, the game that was "Dead"?  Oh wait, that's right, they havent....that other game still had more players than AH or WB has ever had.   AW may not have been profitable, but it also had 4 times (or more) the overhead of AH--a textbook case of mismanagement.    I will agree that the mismanagement started well before EA got a hold of it; however, the sheer incompetence shown by EA's meltdown forever imprinted itself upon the minds of all who witnessed it.  EA's online venture was the Titanic of online gaming, and AW was but a single passenger.  There were few survivors.

Some of us knew what was comming and enjoyed it while we could  :)

J_A_B

Offline Westy

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2004, 03:24:08 PM »
I did not like AW's either to be quite honest.  I imagine that comes as a surprise ;)  It was as unrealistic as AH's is and I cannot find either superior over the other.  Kind of not being able to say I like red or green peppers when I hate peppers period.

 As for numbers being an indicator of a superior game? then AW and AH both sucked in comparison to EQ or Quake.   AW had the benefit of being the first sim around (and ironically ended up as an arcade due to lack of development and advancment).  The AOL exposure and the Bigweek/AWIII beta free play followed up quickly by the cheapest $$$ subscription around created those numbers more than anything else. At $10/mo it was the only affordable game in town.  But BEFORE AOL and Bigweek/AWII beta the AW numbers never approached anything like seen in AH th last couple of years.
 I'd bet if one could count all of the players in AH, WB, WWIIO and IL2 I they'd handily exceed AW's arena totals on thier best day under Gamestorm.

Offline J_A_B

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2004, 03:41:24 PM »
"As for numbers being an indicator of a superior game? then AW and AH both sucked in comparison to EQ or Quake."

Indeed; flightsims all have suffered from an inability to attract a signifigant number pf players.  I wasn't making any claims of superiority one way or another (not this time anyway hehe).  I merely pointed out that lack of player interest was NOT the cause of AW's demise (my point, unstated but present, was that if AH can get by on its smaller player base, AW should have been able too as well).  Mismanagement killed it, the same as what is in  the slow process of killing WarBirds.  The process is almost the same---the core product being neglected in favor of other projects which there is little interest in, from either the community OR the "average gamer".

I will give credit where credit is due--AH shows greater mass-market potential than AW ever exhibited, by virtue of its expanded ground war and such innovations.  There are squads in AH dedicated to the ground war; such a thing was unthinkable in AW.  That variety is a GOOD thing.  AH also benefits from a focused design crew who have only ONE product to worry about and NO corporate suits looking over their shoulders--this too is a GOOD thing.

Oh yeah, ammo counters.   Um....I don't really care...I don't pay much attention to mine...the plane I fly has one built-in anyway (when you are low on ammo, you have only 2 guns shooting instead of all of them).  I don't think ammo counters affect the game in any substantial way though so since they're in, might as well leave them.

J_A_B

Offline 1K3

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2004, 07:37:05 PM »
here's a simple solution......


I think HTC should remove ammo counters INSIDE the cockpit and replace it with the ammo counters similar to what we have when we man a turret, gunfield, or shore guns (Note that ammo counters for manning turret, gunfield, or shore guns are located at the TOP RIGHT SCREEN IN GREEN TEXT.).

I also think that ammo counters and icon range (host/CM can only turn off the range #s, not the plane icon) can be turn on or off by H2H host or C.M.


(sorry i did not have enough time to read the whole thread :) )
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 07:43:04 PM by 1K3 »

Offline Seagoon

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2004, 03:58:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
Yes it does.  If one is interested (as I am) in "flying" online in as close to possible a simulated WWII airplane digfighting in WWII era aircombat then one would want it to be as accurate as possible.

Anything less is a___, well, a "game" using "game" vehicles "clothed" in WWII airplane skins for appearances sake.


Sorry Westy, this really just isn't a plausible argument at present for the simple reason that we fly historically allied planes against historically allied planes etc. In WW2 seldom did Hurricanes and engage Spitfires on purpose because they had different colored icons. ;) This is definitely a game, not an immersion simulation.
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Offline Kweassa

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2004, 05:32:32 PM »
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This is definitely a game, not an immersion simulation.


 This is a game of the simulation genre. People are incorrect when they suggest a difference between a "game" and a "simulation".

 That's like comparing "orange" and "fruit" - those are two different categories.

 Ultimately Aces High, Warbirds, Fighter Ace, WW2OL, MS Flight Simulator series, military flight simulators and etc etc are all in the "simulations" category. The only difference is what level of realism can be accounted for each of them - how one game is more 'real' than the other.

 Simulations are literally that - it simulates the reality, giving second-hand experiences to people who don't have an opportunity to fly first hand. Thus, "how real it is", is what comprises the main strengths of the games of this genre, as compared to others - role playing, arcade, strategy, etc etc. Obviously the more serious it is in the reality department, the more pronounced it is, as a simulation game.

 We don't expect gamers to go through weeks of flight training, or to build a state-of-the-art virtual cockpit and operate every switch there is.

 However, we do expect them to gain months and years of experience to become a better pilot - nobody complains about that(well, some do, but to those guys we say "then go play an arcade, or Fighter Ace in RR arenas")

 Because gunnery is a skill issue, which is very intimately involved in what makes a simulation game so interesting  - depiction of reality - the more real it is the better.

 Otherwise if someone may denounce that fact and declare "this is only a game, and gunnery should be easier", then there's no logical distinction between a game like Aces High with arcade shoot-em-up games - after all, someone may always find gunnery like AH1 still too hard.

 They gonna ask the same thing; "does gunnery have to be this hard? This is a game, why not give us unlimited ammo and easier targetting?"

 What is anyone gonna answer to them in that case? Where's the line drawn then?

Offline DipStick

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Do we need ammo indicators???
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2004, 11:37:05 PM »
<-- Likes it the way it is...