Author Topic: Reagan: Right man at the right time (Read 557 times)

DREDIOCK · « **Reply #15 on:** June 06, 2004, 12:32:32 PM »

Outstanding point..
Too often people look at people of the past and incorrectly try to apply todays standards to past eras.
Attitudes and thinking were alot different in past eras then they are today. 100 years from now people will be trying to apply their standards to our times and view us in alot of ways in an unfavorable light in some ways And in a favorable light in others.

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Originally posted by Widewing
I have read most if not all published quotations of TR's thoughts on Japan and the Japanese. Many display the typical western outlook on oriental societies, which means being less open-minded than we would find appealing today.
If you were to visit TR's Sagamore Hill estate, you will find the house decorated with the many gifts he received from Japanese visitors and the Japanese Government, including some marvelous swords and artworks.

While TR personally admired the Japanese, make no mistake that he was very much a man of his times and his thinking, now frowned upon as being prejudicial, was still far more open-minded than his contemporaries. Remember, what we see as being intolerant today was viewed as being extremely liberal at the turn of the 20th century.

Brady, or any other 21st century historian would be wise to understand that their modern vista must allow for the cultural differences of the era in question when they offer any type of critical analysis, be it of Roosevelt or the Japanese.

My regards,

Widewing

Toad · « **Reply #16 on:** June 06, 2004, 12:34:35 PM »

It's not his attitude towards the Japanese that is politically incorrect nowadays.

Mostly, it's TR's views on other folks as somewhat less than human.

It's too detailed to discuss here, but I find it an interesting read so far. Right now, I'm only to the point of the war's beginning. Brady's view of how the Japanese viewed the lead up decades to the war is pretty interesting and it does not show TR in a good light.

There's quite a bit like this, which is not a direct quote but from a review:

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The killing of Filipino Prisoners of War (POW’s) was official US policy and the standard army torture of the day was called the "water cure." "America replaced the oppressor and adopted the same methods - widespread torture, concentration camps, the killing of disarmed prisoners and helpless civilians - but with a ruthlessness that surpassed even that of the Spanish." (JB) Spain’s brutality against civilians had been the rationale for the US invasion. President Teddy Roosevelt had this to say when the slaughter "officially" ended in 1902: after hailing "the bravery of American soldiers" who fought "for the triumph of civilization over the black chaos of savagery and barbarism," he declared it "the most glorious war in the nation’s history."

Like I said, it's a contrarian viewpoint to how we view ourselves now. TR does not come off well, however.

Widewing · « **Reply #17 on:** June 06, 2004, 01:14:16 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad
It's not his attitude towards the Japanese that is politically incorrect nowadays.

Mostly, it's TR's views on other folks as somewhat less than human.

It's too detailed to discuss here, but I find it an interesting read so far. Right now, I'm only to the point of the war's beginning. Brady's view of how the Japanese viewed the lead up decades to the war is pretty interesting and it does not show TR in a good light.

There's quite a bit like this, which is not a direct quote but from a review:

Like I said, it's a contrarian viewpoint to how we view ourselves now. TR does not come off well, however.

Does Bradley mention that when informed of the torture and brutality in the PI, that TR ordered the Secretary of War to organize a commission to investigate the charges? Does he mention that several high ranking Army officers were sacked and in some cases charged and and convicted of their crimes?

Or, is Bradley off on one of his self-righteous rants again?

My regards,

Widewing

Boroda · « **Reply #18 on:** June 06, 2004, 01:43:26 PM »

Widewing, Portsmuth peace treaty was probably the greatest Russian diplomatic victory since st. Alexander of Neva and his agreements with Golden Horde. The whole Russo-Japanese (not Russi-Sino) war was the greatest defeat we faced, maybe even worse then Crimean war of 1853-55... I have heard that TR was quite impressed by Sergey Witte, and Witte simply played on American public opinion to get all possible support, that Japanese failed to do.

Looking from the different side of the world (geographically, politically and culturally) I see two greatest American presidents of XX century: FDR and Reagan. Both being too different in the issues of relations with my country. In early 30s FDR used trade with USSR to help overcoming a Depression, and later cooperated with Soviet Union to fight nazism. Reagan used foolish Gorby's politics to destroy my country by turning it from a foe to an "ally", at the same time draining Soviet industry by the SDI programm (a greatest provocation, compared only to Khryschev's missile bluff)...

Reagan was an enemy, but a honorable one. My hat off for him.

Toad · « **Reply #19 on:** June 06, 2004, 02:21:30 PM »

I suppose I could laboriously type out 10 pages of the book or so but I think I'll pass.

Give it a read if you are curious.

As for me, I'll finish it, perhaps do some collateral reading/verification and form an opinion.

I will say this: Bradley makes you think in the first 50 pages. Something not a lot of authors accomplish these days.

DREDIOCK · « **Reply #20 on:** June 06, 2004, 02:30:37 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad
It's not his attitude towards the Japanese that is politically incorrect nowadays.

Mostly, it's TR's views on other folks as somewhat less than human.

Compaired to TR and all the things he went through and accomplished in his life. Most other folks were.. and still are.
LOL

Montezuma · « **Reply #21 on:** June 06, 2004, 03:32:32 PM »

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Originally posted by Widewing
I am also convinced that Reagan would have done the same thing.

Who knows. Reagan dramatically improved our relations with Saudi Arabia and let them have AWACs and F-15s, which really pissed off the Isrealis.

Widewing · « **Reply #22 on:** June 06, 2004, 05:58:22 PM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
Widewing, Portsmuth peace treaty was probably the greatest Russian diplomatic victory since st. Alexander of Neva and his agreements with Golden Horde. The whole Russo-Japanese (not Russi-Sino) war was the greatest defeat we faced, maybe even worse then Crimean war of 1853-55... I have heard that TR was quite impressed by Sergey Witte, and Witte simply played on American public opinion to get all possible support, that Japanese failed to do.

Roosevelt's letters indicate that he was not at all impressed with Witte. He wrote the following to his son Kermit: "The Japanese ask too much, but the Russians are ten times worse than the Japs because they are so stupid and won't tell the truth."

A day later he wrote to American diplomat William Rockhill, "Bad as the Chinese are, no human beings, black, yellow or white, could be as untruthful, as insincere, as arrogant - in short as untrustworthy in every way - as the Russians under their present system. I was pro-Japanese before, but after my experience with the (Russian) peace commissioners I am far stronger pro-japanese than ever."

Japan very much impressed TR when they allowed the Czar enough wiggle room to arrive at peace and not find himself (the Czar) deposed as a result. TR praised the Emperor for his, "wisdom and magnanimity".

Once the agreement had been signed, TR confided in his friend Arthur Lee, "There were moments during the peace conference at Portsmouth when I earnestly wished I could get the entire Russian government to the top of Cooper's Bluff and run them violently down a steep place into the sea!"

TR worked tirelessly to convince Japan to make concessions, even though as victors, that was a lot to ask of them. Nonetheless, he did prevail upon Japan to do so. Any perceived Russian diplomatic victory can be attributed directly to Theodore Roosevelt and his influence with Japan. Indeed, TR did not receive the Nobel Peace prize for merely being a referee.

My regards,

Widewing

Pongo · « **Reply #23 on:** June 06, 2004, 07:48:51 PM »

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Originally posted by Widewing
I am quite sure that TR would have looked to the Saudi's as the root of the problem. It has been Saudi oil money that has financed Islamic extremist groups, and TR believed that evil should be cut off at its source. I'm sure that the "big stick" would have fallen on the Saudi Princes rather than on Iraq.

Without financing, terror is difficult to export. There is plenty of evidence that many millions, perhaps even billions of dollars of Saudi money has been funneled to terrorists since the late 1960s. Saudi Arabia is the First National Bank of terror. TR would have closed the bank.

My regards,

Widewing

The whole Iraq mess back to 90 would have been alot different with Reagan. I cant believe he would have let Sadam believe an invasion of Kuwiet had US support. And if he had to invade Iraq I would like to think he would have finished it.
The Bushes are strange shadows of Reagan.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #24 on:** June 06, 2004, 08:01:31 PM »

I read about one thing reagon did to aid in the downfall of the USSR.......He went to OPEC and got them to turn the well heads wide open.

Not only did this provide cheaper petroleum but it also undercut russian oil. It made it more expensive for them to pump the stuff than they could sell it for.