Deadliest Fighter

[Xjazz]

Originally posted by Bodhi
During the early portion of the Hellcat's deployment, it's kill ratio was 37 to 1.  By the end of the war it was down to 19 to 1.  The highest KtD in the war.  The reason for the radical drop was owing to it's heavy employment as a jabo, and the subsequent losses associated in that role.

F6F.... there is no substitute.

A-hem, about the K/D...

"The Finns achieved a kill/loss ratio of 32:1 in the Brewsters during over three years of fighting (June 25th 1941 - September 4th 1944) against the numerically superior Soviet Air Force. "

"The top scoring Brewster B-239 pilot was Hans Wind with 39 kills in B-239s. Wind scored 26 of his kills while flying B-239 designated BW-393 and Eino Luukkanen scored 7 more kills with the same plane. BW-393 is credited with 41 kills in total making it possibly the single aircraft with most air victories in the history of air warfare. "

[HavocTM]

Very interesting!

The Brewster Buffalo didn't seem like a very capable aircraft.  Very slow and relatively limited armament...

But wow they really racked up some victories!

I had read somewhere that there weren't any Brewsters for training so the Finnish pilots had to just hop in and learn to fly it.  Apparently many of the first shipment were lost in training accidents.

[Xjazz]

Hi HavocTM,

About Brewster:

http://www.danford.net/buff.htm
http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/brewster.html
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/BWtoFAF1.htm

Many FAF history articles
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/

[Mathman]

The F6F kicked ass... in the PTO.  IMHO, it is impossible to truly compare statistics between the Russian front, Western Europe front, and PTO.  All three were very very different types of wars.

I mean, you can have some people argue that the Finns were the best pilots.  I can make a case that the USN pilots of 1942 were the best at that time.  I am sure others can say the same about most of the major air forces involved at some point during the war.

Look at the Buffalo.  Things that allowed it to succeed with the Finns were outclassed by the Japanese in the Pacific.  The F6F outclassed the Zeke in just about everything (except low speed maneuverability), but how would it have faired in a protracted war against the German 190s and 109s?  The La7 was great, but how would it have done if it had to face the high altitude bombing campaign of the US?

Great for discussion, but you will never be able to pin down what was the best fighter of WW2.  What criteria you think is important may not be important to the next person.  Look at me, I am not a big afficianado of the ETO (though I do read about it).  I prefer the PTO to the Luftwaffe/USAAF/RAF/VVS/etc.  What I think makes a fighter great is not the same as what Batz does for instance (not picking on him, but he is identifiable as someone who prefers the LW).

All together though, it is a great discussion.  And yes, the F6F is the best fighter produced during WW2 (sorry, couldn't resist saying that - whether I truly feel that way is another matter, its just my favorite).

[Batz]

Well I fly lw but if I had to pic a plane to fight in ww2 I wouldn't chose a 109 or 190, I'd fly an F6F.

I think its a fine aircraft.

USN pilots are and were some of the finest in the world....

However, I wouldn't go as far as Bodhi by saying

F6F.... there is no substitute.

Whatever successes a particular plane had it is most likely a result of pilot training and tactics.

[Mathman]

Originally posted by Batz
Whatever successes a particular plane had it is most likely a result of pilot training and tactics.

That is something I completely agree with.  All the performance in the world doesn't mean squat if it isn't used right.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Karnak
I doubt the 109's K/D is much above 1 for 1.  Frankly, I'd guess it is below 1 for 1.

Approximately 35,000 Bf109s were made during WWII. In the few war months of 1941 alone the Soviet air force lost 17,900 airplanes, most of them to the 109s. In 1942 the Soviets lost 12,100 airplanes, again mostly to the 109s. In 1943 the Soviets lost 22,500 airplanes. In 1944 they lost 24,800 airplanes. And even in 1945 they lost 11,000 airplanes.

In scale the Allied air offensive in the west was merely a sideshow to the war in the east. In fact every other military conflict in recorded history pales in comparison.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by GScholz In scale the Allied air offensive in the west was merely a sideshow to the war in the east. In fact every other military conflict in recorded history pales in comparison.

 1944 - All Combat Types

Total: West - Eastern Front- West/East

Sorties: 182,004 - 342,483 - 0.53

Losses: 9768 - 2406 - 4.06

Losses/Sortie: 0.0537 - 0.00703 - 7.66

4.06 times as many aircraft were lost in combat in the West than were lost in the East, a ratio reasonably close to Groehler's 3.41 for all "losses". The most chilling statistic for the JG 26 pilots appears in the sortie data. An airplane flying a combat mission in the West was 7.66 times more likely to be destroyed than one on a similar mission in the East. It is clear that the burden of sacrifice was borne by the Luftwaffe aircrew on the Western Front and over the Reich, not on the Eastern Front.

from http://jg26.vze.com/

It also should be noted that ~70% of the LW was consentrated in the West.

[HoHun]

Hi Karnak,

>I doubt the 109's K/D is much above 1 for 1.  Frankly, I'd guess it is below 1 for 1.

We had a long thread about that recently :-)

Quoting myself:

"According to Edward Sims' "The Fighter Pilots", the Luftwaffe claimed about 70000 victories, for the loss of 8500 pilots KIA, 2700 POW and 9100 wounded in action, for a total of ca. 20000 losses. Not knowing the real numbers, we could speculate there were another 20000 pilots who bailed out OK, that we arrive at a 70000:40000 kill ratio for the Luftwaffe, or 1.75:1."

That's rather crude because losses to ground defenses are included and no type breakdown is given. Still, it's better than nothing :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[GScholz]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
It also should be noted that ~70% of the LW was consentrated in the West.

This is the only part of your post that has anything what so ever to do with what I posted ... and it is complete and utter nonsense.

In 1944 two thirds of the LW was in Luftflotte 4, 5, and 6 all on the Russian front. In June 1944 2,085 combat aircraft were on the East Front while only 850 aircraft were deployed in defence of the Reich, and of these only 135 were stationed in France and Belgium. Even the sortie numbers you posted show that the LW flew far greater numbers of sorties in the east than in the west.

[Batz]

Hes confused, I am sure he meant "day fighters" and closer to 80% were in the west according to Caldwell. And this was late '43 onward.

1. During the period in question, a constant 21-24% of the Luftwaffe's day fighters were based in the East - but only 12-14% of the Luftwaffe day fighter "losses" occurred in this theater.

2. During this period, a constant 75-78% of the day fighters were based in the West. The turnover was enormous: 14,720 aircraft were "lost", while operational strength averaged 1364.

3. During this period, 2294 day fighters were "lost" in the East; the ratio of western "losses" to eastern "losses" was thus 14,720/2294 = 6.4 to one.

4. During this period, a constant 43-46% of all of the Luftwaffe's operational aircraft were based in the East. It should be noted that these included entire categories (for example, battlefield recce, battle planes, dive bombers) that were used exclusively in the East, because they couldn't survive in the West.

5. During this period, a total of 8600 operational aircraft were "lost" in the East, while 27,060 were "lost" in the West; the ratio of western "losses" to eastern "losses" was thus 27,060/8600 = 3.41 to one

[Karnak]

GScholz,

How many of those Russian aircraft were destroyed on the ground?  As I recall, the vast, vast majority were.

Maybe you count aircraft destroyed while parked on the ground as a kill, but I don't and I don't think the Germans did either.


HoHun,

How many of those were 109 kills?  For example, I know that the Spitfire had a positive K/D ratio against the 109, and a negative K/D ratio against the 190.

Were 10,000+ 109s really lost to accidents and causes other than being shot down?

[GScholz]

Batz, on 1 January 1943 the total strength of the Jagdgruppen in the west was 635 109s and 190s, stationed at airfields that stretched from Banak in Northern Norway to Brest-Guipavas on the Atlantic coast in Brittany.

In late-December 1943 all units operating in the defence of Germany were put under a new command called Luftflotte Reich, led by Generaloberst Hans-Jürgen Stumpff. On 20 February 1944 the total strength of Luftflotte Reich was 863 day-fighters including Zerstörers. This is less than half of the 1,675 109s and 190s in service at that time.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Karnak
GScholz,

How many of those Russian aircraft were destroyed on the ground?  As I recall, the vast, vast majority were.

In the opening phases of operation Barbarossa, yes the vast majority were. From 1942 onwards, the majority was air combat over the battlefield.

Originally posted by Karnak
For example, I know that the Spitfire had a positive K/D ratio against the 109, and a negative K/D ratio against the 190.

How do you know that?

Originally posted by Karnak
Were 10,000+ 109s really lost to accidents and causes other than being shot down?

30-35% sound like a realistic number yes. 5% or so in take-off and landing accidents. Probably 10% in other accidents. 10% or so in write-offs from damage or fatigue. another 5-10% destroyed on the ground at factory or airfield. Sounds reasonable.

[Batz]

GS those are Caldwells numbers from his site, the one milo linked.

Karnak

How do you know the spit had a pos k/D over the 109?

The spit were secondary players through BoB.

In NA they were slaughtered, cross channel attacks were limited in scope.

So what source do you base this on?

For most of their service they faced 190 any way....

Here's spit killers

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/spit.html

Here's BoB experten

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/bob.html

Here's Kanaljäger experten

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/kanal.html

Not to mention the med.......