Deadliest Fighter

[GScholz]

From what I read on that site it seems Mr. Caldwell is on a quest to prove that the "real" air war was fought in the west rather than over the battlefield where 15,000,000+ soldiers and 20,000,000+ civilians were killed. More people were killed on the Eastern Front than the total of all those that served on both sides on all other fronts in WWII including the Pacific.

[irritant]

your point?

[GScholz]

Scroll up.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Batz
How do you know the spit had a pos k/D over the 109?

I knew I was going to get bit by that after I'd left.  I was being sloppy.  I should have said that it has been reported to me that the Spit was positive vs the 109 and negative vs the 190.  Sometime ago on this board, IIRC.

I was typing fast as I had to go and that was the shortest phrase that came out.

Factually I don't know and that was the wrong word to use.  Mea culpa.

[WilldCrd]

I dunno if this helps but just watched a show on the wings channel about deadliest aircraft spanning 40 years
winner was the p47 with the most kills
but, that was also including ground attack

[frank3]

In Europe scene I also think it was the P-47, mainly because they were the first long-range fighters and were flown in great numbers

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by Karnak
I doubt the 109's K/D is much above 1 for 1.  Frankly, I'd guess it is below 1 for 1.

Hmm, and how would be that possilbe ? Certainly most of us would agree those hated Bf 109 shot down by far the most planes in WW2 - lists I have show some 60 000 kills done by the LW fighter Experten, it`s about right to assume 40-50 000 of those were made in Bf 109s. Already we have a (very) positive K/D ratio, but let`s go on, the strenght report lists I have for German s-e fighters also show something like only about 8000-10 000 (recalling from memo) German fighters being lost to 'enemy-action', which would also include Flak etc. This refers to start of 1942 to the end of 1944, in other words, fairly complete.

As for the earlier years, evidence points to even the mighty Spit being spanked badly in the BoB by 109s in k/d ratios.. results over France, Dunkirk and NA wasn`t any better in those early years, so I wonder, if one of the best allied fighters at that time had such a hard time, how could the other fare ? Galland and Moelders already made 100 kills by about the end 1941 IIRC - most allied pilots couldn`t even score one-third of thatin the whole war. Though reasons for this are often mentioned for this, many of such points having truth in them, such figures certainly make me think of a rather positive kill ratio for the Bf 109 pilots.
 One shouldn`t even mention the early days of Barbarossa - `twas basically a mass murder in the skies and 109s took there share of it..

And frankly, I can hardly imagine any of the major ww2 fighters would have negative k/d ratios. Hardly could they have such, mostly they met bombers, transports, ie. stuff that they were supposed to shot down by defintion..

Even though definitive k/d ratios are hard to confirm. While the amount of planes lost in combat is known, the amount of real kills and not just overclaiming is uncertain and next to impossible the discover for the whole war period..

[Batz]

Originally posted by Karnak
I knew I was going to get bit by that after I'd left.  I was being sloppy.  I should have said that it has been reported to me that the Spit was positive vs the 109 and negative vs the 190.  Sometime ago on this board, IIRC.

I was typing fast as I had to go and that was the shortest phrase that came out.

Factually I don't know and that was the wrong word to use.  Mea culpa.

AH ok, I have no idea myself but it just doesnt seem correct looking at various theaters.

[MiloMorai]

What kind of feather did the LW use to spank the Spit Barbi?

JULY 1940-OCTOBER 1940 THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN.

The Battle of France was a wild melee, Allied Units continually falling back and the advancing Germans meant that both sides could be excused for poor paperwork.

After the collapse of France , the Luftwaffe turned to England and afetr some sparring over Convoys, on 10 July began what is known as The Battle of Britain.

Through out the Battle, which continued to 31 October 1940, the Luftwaffe Propaganda machine claimed to have destroyed over 3000 RAF aircraft, clearly exceeding the size of the RAF at the time. OKL officially credited its Pilots with the destruction of about 1955 Spitfires & Hurricanes (I have deducted Defiants, Blenheims and other aircraft) which compares unfavourably with the RAF losses of either 932 ("The Narrow Margin" by Wood & Dempster) or 755 Spitfires & Hurricanes (Fighter Command Losses & Casualties by Frank) Included in the RAF losses are those which were shot down by Bombers, and not included in the OKL figures but not those which "crash landed at an airfield" and were repaired. It is hard to pick out those shot down by the Bombers as many final moments are not clear and they are only listed as shot down.

In this period, the reputation of many Luftwaffe experten were built upon, but it appears that their tallies must be inflated. Marseille, The Star of Africa, was awarded his first kill on 8 September for a Spitfire, on the same day 4 other Spitfires were claimed though the RAF only lost 1, was Marseille mistaken and he destroyed a Hurricane, OKL awarded 8 Hurricane kills but Franks details only 4 as being shot down!! Marseille went on to claim 6 other victories over the Channel, none of which are detailed in any official records but go to make up his tally of 158 "kills".

Other days with "interesting" results
Date OKL Awards Narrow Margin/Franks
10 July 27 5/1
11 July 2 4/7
29 July 18 3/3
8 August 38 19/15
11 August 55 32/26
15 August 87 34/30
18 August 86 27/29
31 August 97 37/39
6 September 58 23/20
7 September 72 28/23
15 September 69 26/27
27 September 79 28/24
30 September 54 20/14

By the end of the Battle RAF losses were only 47.67% of OKL awards according to The Narrow Margin or 38.62% according to Franks. (Some of this difference are the Defiants, Blenheims etc. which I didn't tally in the Franks figures.)

Added to these figures are the accuracy of aircraft types (a problem throughout the war to all sides) OKL awarded 712 Hurricane kills and 1243 Spitfire kills , Franks tallies to 470 Hurricanes and only 285 Spitfires. This would probably be attributed to the "desire" to shoot down the better aircraft. Claims were also awarded for some odd types, a continual reference to Hawks or Hawk-75's, a Radial engined aircraft tottaly different to any RAF fighter, some Morane's, a Bloch MB 151, and a Bregeut Bre693(more possible as this was close to the fall of France)

Now we all know that Barbi can not tell the truth even if his life depended on it.

[GScholz]

Now what's he droning on about?

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by GScholz
Now what's he droning on about?

Probably he just tries to start some flaming again, so he won`t be so bored.

Anyway, as per "Spitfire Special" by Ted Hooton, the 'exchange rate' between 1st July and end of September 1940 was the following, shot down in combat by the opposing fighter:

219 Spitfires lost for 180 Bf 109s
272 Hurricanes lost for 153 Bf 109s.

Which gives a total 491 Spits+Hurris lost for 333 Bf 109s in fighter combat during BoB, giving the Bf 109s a 1.47 positive kill ratio - at least as per Hooton`s research.

[MiloMorai]

the mighty Spit being spanked badly in the BoB by 109s

Not droning or starting a flame unlike you with your 'spanked' comment Barbi. If your ratio of 1.2:1 for the 109 over the Spit is being spanked, you have a very wild and vivid imagination.

Being 'spanked' would be the F6F's or the B239's k/d ratio.

Since you like that site so much Barbi, lets look at the stats for Sept/Oct '40.

Spitfire:  195 destroyed, 76 damaged

Bf 109:  326 destroyed, 96 damaged

Would seem the 109 was the one that had the tough time.

[VO101_Isegrim]

One just wonders why have to the Hurri losses suddenly disappear ?

Single-engined fighter losses Sept/Oct 1940 as per The Battle of Britain" by Peter G. Cooksley :

RAF

Hurricane   :      294 destroyed, 77 damaged
Spitfire          195 destroyed, 76 damaged
Total : 489 destroyed, 153 damaged,


LW


Bf 109:   326 destroyed, 96 damaged

1.5 (1.6 in damaged) kill ratio in favour of the Bf 109.
It appears in Sept/October the exchange rate was even worser for the RAF than for the whole battle`s avarage.

[Shuckins]

Because of the fluid nature of aerial combat statistics can be misleading.

During the early stages of the Battle of Britain the main targets of both Hurricane and Spitfire pilots were Luftwaffe bombers.  Luftwaffe fighters flying over southern England were cut loose in search-and-destroy missions.  During that phase, I suspect RAF fighters losses were greater than the Luftwaffe's.

After Hitler switched the main targets of Luftwaffe attacks from RAF airfields to London and other cities, Luftwaffe fighters, suffering from the lack of drop tanks, found it increasingly difficult to come to grips with RAF fighters.  With less interference from the 109s, RAF fighter losses began to drop.

In the final stages of battle Goering, angry over rising bomber losses, ordered the 109s to cease their search-and-destroy tactics and confine them to close escort of the bombers.  With their freedom of action severely curtailed, 109 losses began to rise.

Regards, Shuckins/Leggern

[68DevilM]

Originally posted by HavocTM
Sorry if this has been asked before, but I am curious in terms of pure kills (not ratio), what aircraft has shot down the most enemy planes by number?

I suspect it will be a WW2 plane but I am interested to see what plane killed the largest number of enemies.

My best guess is the F6F, but that is just a shot in the dark.

Any ideas?

is that any plane incluiding bombers?
then probably a german type model. but then again the p51's put a majior hurting on the german airforce when introduced. also when the marines got the f4u in the pacific they put the hurting to the japs so i guess i will have to do a little search online to answer this question:confused: