Author Topic: Nobody can tell me... (Read 8739 times)

Hortlund · « **Reply #120 on:** June 10, 2004, 12:17:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by xrtoronto
that is a lie!

Dr. Blix and his team had unresitricted access (at least that's the way Blix tells it, but you know better don't you?)

You're the liar.

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/pages/document_list.asp

Toad · « **Reply #121 on:** June 10, 2004, 12:47:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by senna
Big talk for a guy who sat in and airial tanker and never saw combat. Go look up the statistics for that war. My own father saw combat, in the front lines, got shot at, and personally filmed loads of dead bodies. He began his service as a youth in military academy. He was shooting an M1 garand when he was a teenager in military school. Ive met chitloads of ex paratroopers, pilots, whatever (many of which spent many years in jail after the war). What the heck were they doing? Some of my own friends do not have fathers etc... edit: I think you should think before you speak.

Well, since you opened like that, I'll forego my usual polite response.

Look, putz, I didn't say a word about US troops that fought in VietNam. Didn't knock their courage, didn't slam their dedication, didn't impughn their honor or decry their reason for being there.

I think the US did an honorable thing in VietNam, I think those that fought and died there are heros.

However, it's also my opinion that the VietNamese proved themselves unworthy of a sacrifice this large. In short, they didn't want their freedom enough to die for it themselves at the end od the day.

Thus, my observation that you cannot "give" a people freedom. They have to want it badly enough to earn it for themselves.

Now, if that's not clear enough for you, show this to your father. I'll wager he'll agree and explain it to you.

BTW, an RC-135 has no refueling boom at all. So do a little more study and see what I did in those years. Putz.

Toad · « **Reply #122 on:** June 10, 2004, 12:56:17 PM »

For the rest of yas:

Yes, I supported Bush's decision to go to war based on what our government was saying and what some friends still in the biz were telling me.

Still, I also said upfront those WMD had to be there to justify invading a sovereign nation. I'm sure you can do a search and find my posts that mention that.

So, tell me now, over a year after the invasion and SH, the WMD-meister himself in our custody for 6 months or so......

The WMD

A) were non-existent and never were there

B) are still there but we don't know where they are

C) are in Syria, where the government is very chummy with known Islamic terrorist organizations

Which is it? After picking your answer, explain how that justifies invading a sovereign nation and losing 800+ of your finest citizens while saying "mission accomplished".

Because this mission was always about WMD. That was the entire thrust of the UN discussion.

Thanks in advance.

(That's why I'm p*ssed. There is no "good answer" in that list. I don't think "Boosh lied", I don't think "Boosh misled". I think the mission was never accomplished no matter what answer you pick. There has to be responsibility and accountability for that. Other than that, I have no big, impossible beef with Bush. I'd vote for him again. Except for this responsibility/accountability thing for 800+ mother's that lost a child.)

Toad · « **Reply #123 on:** June 10, 2004, 01:01:57 PM »

Well, it's clear there's someone who doesn't know cit yapping his trap. You, of course.

Anyone that's delved into the history of the VietNam war has to be aware of the near total antipathy of the South Vietnamese towards doing their own fighting. Flyboy has nothing to do with it; anyone can educate themselves on a subject if they have the interest.

Ask your father about the ARVN troops overall. Sure, there were specific units that were good, even great. But ask him what he thought about having a regular ARVN unit protecting his flanks.

You need to hit the books, Senna. The bottom line is the NV's wanted it far more badly than the SV's.

Which is no reflection on American troops or American participation. So you can just can your BS about me dissing US troops. That's a figment of your overactive imagination.

senna · « **Reply #124 on:** June 10, 2004, 01:03:41 PM »

Do you know what 30 or more m-16s or ak-47s sound like when they fire all at once. You know how artilary sounds when it lands near you. What bullets sound like when they fly past your head. My father does. I've heard him talk about that. Nuff said.

Saintaw · « **Reply #125 on:** June 10, 2004, 01:09:00 PM »

Right, if I read what crusher posted right, that terrorist leader (who ran a camp in Afghanistan) got to be the source of link between terrorists and Sadaam because he went to get medical attention in Irak? sure... that makes sense...

The reason I remember for going in was the WMD, not Sadaam... the "Sadaam / Liberation" thing was clearly 2nd in any news you'd see back when it started (of course... now the tune has changed

)

don't get me wrong... it's a good thing that man's gone... but I'm not buying the solidarity thing for a second... especially not comming from a "state".

PS: Wow this is as close to seeing Toad cuss than I ever will I guess. That was pretty uncalled for, senna

senna · « **Reply #126 on:** June 10, 2004, 01:15:38 PM »

I erased my other post because of my language.

Nothing personal meant towards you, I talk like that all the time.

SirLoin · « **Reply #127 on:** June 10, 2004, 01:16:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad

Look, putz, I didn't say a word about US troops that fought in VietNam. Didn't knock their courage, didn't slam their dedication, didn't impughn their honor or decry their reason for being there.

I think the US did an honorable thing in VietNam, I think those that fought and died there are heros.

However, it's also my opinion that the VietNamese proved themselves unworthy of a sacrifice this large. In short, they didn't want their freedom enough to die for it themselves at the end od the day.

Thus, my observation that you cannot "give" a people freedom. They have to want it badly enough to earn it for themselves.

Nicely said Toad..

straffo · « **Reply #128 on:** June 10, 2004, 01:19:21 PM »

Toad you were flying over France in the 70's ?

I'm not really surprised it did happen give the political climate in France at this time.

senna · « **Reply #129 on:** June 10, 2004, 01:19:26 PM »

And BTW Toad, I've read my history and service biographies and know enough though I wont argue with you on the subject. I do not myself have first hand experience though Im not niave about these things. I have my own opinions as well.

And thank you for your own service.

xrtoronto · « **Reply #130 on:** June 10, 2004, 02:20:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
You're the liar.

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/pages/document_list.asp

shove it hortlund...i'm not talking about 14 years ago ya boob!

Blix said:
"I trust that in the new environment in Iraq in which there is full access and cooperation and in which knowledgeable witnesses should no longer be inhibited to reveal what they know," he said, "it should be possible to establish the truth we all want to know."

read it for yourself:

CNN

slimm50 · « **Reply #131 on:** June 10, 2004, 02:32:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Well, Nuke, we disagree.

We invaded a sovereign country and to date have not found any evidence supporting our reason for doing so. Maybe it is in Syria; see above for what I think of that.

Not good enough for me, sorry.

What's sacred about being "sovereign"? If you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar, so-to-speak, then you get it slapped, or you should. SH was murdering his own people and sanctioning the murder of other citizenry around the world.

Toad · « **Reply #132 on:** June 10, 2004, 02:32:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by senna
Do you know what 30 or more m-16s or ak-47s sound like when they fire all at once. You know how artilary sounds when it lands near you. What bullets sound like when they fly past your head. My father does. I've heard him talk about that. Nuff said.

No, I don't.

Do you?

What does your Father say about the ARVN's willingness to fight for their own freedom?

After all your study, you must be aware that for every "front line combat trooper" in the US Army in SVN, there were 9 REMF's that essentially did no fighting?

Are you saying they made no contribution? Are you saying they should have no opinion?

Are you saying that the only histories/analysis of the VN war that one should read are those written by combat infantry men?

What of the mess cook's assistant on the Navy DD in the Gulf of Tonkin? You going to slight him the same way you slight my service?

Let me clue you, pal. I come from immigrant stock. Of the sons of immigrants of age to fight in WW2 on my mother's and father's side, 7 of 7 served. All volunteered, none were drafted if family oral history is correct. 6 came home.

In my family, my brother volunteered and attended USMA, Class of '67. In your vast research, I'm sure you've stumbled across the fact that the Class of '66 and Class of '67 are essentially tied for having the most class members on the Wall in DC.

In the time of draft dodgers, I accepted an AFROTC scholarship. I could have had a USAFA or USNA appointment but on the advice of my brother I went to a school that also admitted women. In my UPT class of 55 graduates, there were 7 fighter assignments in the aircraft block MPC gave my class. My class had the dubious distinction of being assigned to available aircraft by computer lottery using the last 4 of your social security number to identify you. My cowardly last 4 didn't get a fighter although I had requested it on my dream sheet. Shame on those numbers!

I guess my service had no value to the nation, eh? I come from a long line of "aerial tanker sitters" right?

In short, byte me.

Toad · « **Reply #133 on:** June 10, 2004, 02:34:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
Toad you were flying over France in the 70's ?

Yes, '76 to '80.

Toad · « **Reply #134 on:** June 10, 2004, 02:37:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by slimm50
What's sacred about being "sovereign"? If you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar, so-to-speak, then you get it slapped, or you should. SH was murdering his own people and sanctioning the murder of other citizenry around the world.

Well, Slimm, there's this thing called "just war".

It's ok to invade sovereign nations if you have just "causus belli". The topic has been pretty well hashed out by the real brainy guys and deep thinkers.

OTOH, it's NOT OK to invade sovereign nations without just "causus belli". In fact, it's this type of action that got everyone all riled up at Adolf.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any "causus belli" that would qualify under just war theory in this situation.

Had we found the WMD, that would be different.