coverage of Ronald Reagan's death has been excessive,

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Capt. Pork
There you have it, ladies and gentlemen... A man who takes the concept of Pravda to a whole new level.

So you want to say that people who could afford jokes like that are peacefull friendly humanists?...

Again: we have withdrawn from Eastern Europe, and now we get NATO attack planes only 5 minutes of flight from Leningrad (SPb). NATO moves it's forces from Germany towards Russian borders. Is it a peacefull act of love to all Russians?

Open any history book and look how many times my country was invaded from the West. Then try to employ your thought-secretion gangle.

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by Momus--

Guys like Capt Pork just assume that because there's now an ostensibly western style regime, everyone should be prospering in western style, disregarding the fact that that the so called liberalization of the nation has been translated as a gold rush for few at the expense of the many.  

Actually, my only point was that Russia, in its past or present form, does a worse job at taking care of its citizens that the USA, and that I would never return to that way of life. My understanding of this issue is only as good as anyone else's who's called both nations home.

Where does your enlightened understanding of this issue come from?

You're right about one thing, though. I don't give a toss anymore. The Soviet Golden Age, as the Beard put it, alienated my family to the point where fleeing was the only sane option. In this, I am not alone.

I wonder why Victor Belenko decided to steal his Mig25 in 1976? Wasn't that your Golden Age? He didn't know so much about where he was going but he knew what he was leaving. When he got here, like the rest of us, he had serious trouble believing that life could be so different and yes, so much better.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Actually, my only point was that Russia, in its past or present form, does a worse job at taking care of its citizens that the USA, and that I would never return to that way of life. My understanding of this issue is only as good as anyone else's who's called both nations home.

Where does your enlightened understanding of this issue come from?

Russia could do much better in taking care of it's citizens, only if it wasn't the country that was invaded every 50-100 years, defeated nazism without almost any help from "civilized world" and then got stuck in a cold war with a country that didn't suffer from WWII and only counted profits when Russians died by millions. And we could live much better now if your brilliant advisors from IMF and other "charity foundations" didn't make their wise advises how to destroy our economics faster.

Originally posted by Capt. Pork

You're right about one thing, though. I don't give a toss anymore. The Soviet Golden Age, as the Beard put it, alienated my family to the point where fleeing was the only sane option. In this, I am not alone.

I wonder why Victor Belenko decided to steal his Mig25 in 1976? Wasn't that your Golden Age? He didn't know so much about where he was going but he knew what he was leaving. When he got here, like the rest of us, he had serious trouble believing that life could be so different and yes, so much better.

Nice example. A moral freak and traitor, who have left his family for some imaginary benefits and then shared the sad faith of all the traitors, being wasted by his American "friends".

Your family "escaped" from the USSR? Well, everyone has the choice. I hope you are doing better in the West. I prefer to stay here. Maybe because I don't have to hide liquor bottles into paper bags in the street here

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by Boroda


Open any history book and look how many times my country was invaded from the West. Then try to employ your thought-secretion gangle.

Very clever phrasing. How many times has your country committed crimes against its own people? Yes, admittedly, the West was an aggressive force, but how else do you respond to a vast empire, possessing the world's second largest collection of ICBM-based nuclear warheads, ruled by a single man who has no love for his own citizenry. Don't forget Kruschev's little show at the UN, or Sputnik flying over the heads of every living American, demonstrating the ability, in no un-specific terms, to wipe out any target on the planet. I didn't realize the mighty soviet empire was such a victim...

Out of curiosity, Beard, how much time have you spent touring the States?

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by Boroda

 

Nice example. A moral freak and traitor, who have left his family for some imaginary benefits and then shared the sad faith of all the traitors, being wasted by his American "friends".
 

I guess you're one of the people who believes he's dead.

interview with Lt. Belenko

"At present time the general population in that country thinks that I was killed decades ago. My death was confirmed in a St. Petersburg newspaper, this summer, in Smena [1996]."

Freedom of the press, eh Beard?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Very clever phrasing. How many times has your country committed crimes against its own people? Yes, admittedly, the West was an aggressive force, but how else do you respond to a vast empire, possessing the world's second largest collection of ICBM-based nuclear warheads, ruled by a single man who has no love for his own citizenry. Don't forget Kruschev's little show at the UN, or Sputnik flying over the heads of every living American, demonstrating the ability, in no un-specific terms, to wipe out any target on the planet. I didn't realize the mighty soviet empire was such a victim...

More then 50% of Soviet budget went on defence needs. The rest was somehow working for defence too.

Who invented and used the Bomb first? Did you hear about nuclear attack plans against USSR called Charioter, Fleetwood, Dropshoot? If we didn't develop this things - we could end as a 1/6th of the land with no population and radioactive ruins where cities were. Again, please remember Reagan's "joke". Damn he was serious!

Originally posted by Capt. Pork

Out of curiosity, Beard, how much time have you spent touring the States?

Svinina, I spent 4 weeks in the US in 1989. Not much, but I loved your country. Still didn't see any reasons to change my country of residence.

And were you born in USSR? What place?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Capt. Pork
I guess you're one of the people who believes he's dead.

interview with Lt. Belenko

"At present time the general population in that country thinks that I was killed decades ago. My death was confirmed in a St. Petersburg newspaper, this summer, in Smena [1996]."

Freedom of the press, eh Beard?

Yes. And John Lennon wasn't killed, he applied for Soviet citizenship right after Moscow Olympics, and lives now in Dzheskazgan, Kazakhstan. He also has contacts in the US, but never uses his real name.



If you believe such things - there is a problem with you, not with "freedom of press", sorry

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by Boroda

And were you born in USSR? What place?

I was born in the very city where you now live. Moskva.

Regarding Belenko--I've seen a lot about him on the web, about his current career as a consultant in the aerospace industry... Yeah, our press may be biased, but its history of misrepresentation doesn't hold a candle to yours.

I'd do a google search on Belenko if I were you, and keep your eyes open, even if it kills you.

Sorry I can't stick around for any more of this discussion. I have class at one of our oppressive, murderous, capitolist-run Universities in 40 minutes.

Peace

[AKIron]

Guess the Soviets shouldn't have built their house upon the sand. Feel free to blame the US for the fall of the USSR, we accept it with pride.

[VOR]

Originally posted by beet1e
No, I never did read that. Was it a rebuttal? Patti herself was not all sweetness and light. She went a bit Bohemian and started selling drugs at one point.

Yes, a rebuttal. I didn't know about Patti selling drugs..wow. Makes me wonder if Nacy's anti-drug campaign was fueled by this. I would assume so.

I've gotta place an order for these books.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Capt. Pork
I was born in the very city where you now live. Moskva.

Regarding Belenko--I've seen a lot about him on the web, about his current career as a consultant in the aerospace industry... Yeah, our press may be biased, but its history of misrepresentation doesn't hold a candle to yours.

I'd do a google search on Belenko if I were you, and keep your eyes open, even if it kills you.

Sorry I can't stick around for any more of this discussion. I have class at one of our oppressive, murderous, capitolist-run Universities in 40 minutes.

Peace

Hmm. Made a google search for "беленко миг-25". Interesting. The interview you posted may be true.

Some more facts: one of the reasons for his defection may be the following: in Vietnam Americans were dropping leaflets around Red airfields, promising a $100K prize for pilots who'll bring them Soviet fighters. Belenko did know about this. Funny that he didn't get the money.

There were serious signs that Belenko was working for CIA.

Belenko's MiG studies by Americans have let USSR to export MiG-25s, because the machine could not stay "classified" any more. That's how Iraq got 20 MiG-25s

I had a chance to talk to people who worked at MAPO MiG, and they have told me their side of the story. Belenko flew a plane from small serie of 6 machines with "experimental" electronic equipment. The experiment was unsuccessfull, and his MiG must have been returned to the factory for modernisation in a matter of weeks anyway. So - Americans got anything but the real MiG...

Anyway, traitor is a traitor. And a person who left his wife and daughter is a freak...

From his interview I only see that he suffers from "emigrant syndrome". He still tries to justify his treason by same slogans he heard on "Voice of America" in the 70s. And he has no idea of what goes on here now. I doubt that someone will want to pay for his "lectures". Miserable aging clown.

How old were you when you left Russia? Whan did it happen? Sorry for calling you "Svinina"

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Momus--
Boroda is at least partially right; the fall of communism might have been good for the economic freedoms of the Yelstin cronies and the western venture capitalists that backed them in their scramble to buy former state assets at a fraction of their real value, but for the man in the Moscow street incomes have fallen in real terms.

Guys like Capt Pork just assume that because there's now an ostensibly western style regime, everyone should be prospering in western style, disregarding the fact that that the so called liberalization of the nation has been translated as a gold rush for few at the expense of the many. But that's ok, as long as he and his ilk can continue to live the sheltered good life, thousands of miles away, right?

Russia has merely followed the established pattern as demonstrated recently in places like Indonesia, Argentina, Chile etc etc. What the IMF would term as Capital Market Liberalisation really signifies is capital flight, asset stripping and increased corruption. But who gives a toss, as long as the West keeps on getting fatter and richer?

Sorry for the hijack, please carry on pontificating about things you haven't even started to understand.

Now lets be careful here. You are basically right, there have been problems just like you said Momus.

But what is the alternative? I hope you arent suggesting it would have been better for Russia and the whole of eatern europe dominated and supressed by the USSR and communism to have stayed in cold war communist mode.

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by Boroda

How old were you when you left Russia? Whan did it happen? Sorry for calling you "Svinina"

I was only a child when we left, but have been back several times in my teenage years and more recently, in my 20s. It is true that most of what I know came in the form of stories from my parents, who, as Jews, have a slightly different view of the Soviet System than say, my grandfather, who was and still remains a die-hard communist despite the fact that he's been living here on and off, since 1986.

I don't mind you calling me Svinina. I named myself Capt. Pork and thus did not take it as an insult. If you'd said that I was full of Malafya, on the other hand, I might get a bit irked.

Anyway, we're not going to agree on much, I don't think. That being said, I'm starting to feel lousy for getting pissed off at you.