Author Topic: Roll Rate Vs Turn Rate  (Read 23605 times)

Offline hazmatt

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Re: Roll Rate Vs Turn Rate
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2026, 09:28:09 AM »
Are you teaching 38 drivers too? Would love some training!  :cheers: :salute

I was decent in the 38 in AW, didn't fly it much in AH. I do recall that rudder usage was very important. It improved roll rate and was very helpful at low speed high AOL. While I can't give you and good 38 advice, I would say to make sure you are using your rudder if you are not.

Offline Badboy

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Re: Roll Rate Vs Turn Rate
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2026, 06:49:57 PM »

I didn't notice this post the first time around, and there have been some very good responses already.

However, there is a very important principle involved here that has much wider application. It hasn't been directly mentioned yet, and I think familiarity with this concept has the potential to improve a player's combat effectiveness once understood.

It is a vital concept in all types of conflict. It is a decision-making cycle developed by United States Air Force Colonel John Boyd in the early 1970s. It has been applied to every kind of combat operation and while he applied it in air combat it was also adopted early by the Marines. It is such a powerful concept it is used by many armed forces around the world and even in other competitive fields such as sport and business.

I'm talking about Boyd's OODA loop (observe, orient, decide, act). What Boyd did was to break down every stage of any conflict into a sequence of actions that are taken in response to unfolding events. A major advantage often goes to the pilot who can cycle through the loop more quickly. He said that if you can complete your loop faster than your enemy, you will have an advantage. It will feel to you as though your adversary is moving in slow motion.

So, how is that related to air combat and how does it help us understand the benefit of high roll rate in defeating higher turn rate?

But to give you the full picture, I'll briefly mention the other stages.

The first is the observation stage, and it is currently dominated by technology. Back in WWII for air combat it would have depended largely on the Mk 1 eyeball and the early introduction of radar. Currently, the USA leads the world in most of the important technologies for that stage of the cycle. Here I'm referring to radar, AWACS and stealth technology that provide modern pilots with a time advantage in seeing the enemy before the enemy sees them.   

The second stage is orientation. That's about understanding what you see. The biggest factors here are pilot training and experience. You shorten this stage if you instantly recognise what it means when you see a particular situation. You don't need to waste time thinking. You immediately understand the implications and know what your response options are.

The third stage is the decision stage, when you have recognised your options, you need to make a decision, but it won't just be about the unfolding situation. It will involve many other factors, logistics, ammo, fuel, mission, orders and many others that all contribute to overall situational awareness. A fighter pilot needs to assess all the factors quickly and make the best choice. At critical moments, this is about avoiding cognitive overload, the ability to focus and communicate under stress and this is all enhanced by training and experience. Again, that's why so much money and time is spent on the highest quality information systems, enemy intelligence, training and exercises intended to simulate combat experience.

Lastly, the stage that matters for roll rate, Act, the part where you actually do what needs to be done. That includes using your turn rate and roll rate to gain an advantage and again, time is a critical factor. Let me explain how that applies in the case of roll rate versus turn rate.

Roll rate can be very powerful. For example, from a neutral start it is possible to defeat an aircraft with superior level turn performance and finish with a guns solution by exploiting a roll rate advantage. When inexperienced pilots see this, they are amazed that they have an aircraft that can out-turn their opponent, yet they can't make the gains needed for a kill. The reason is that the pilot of the aircraft with the superior roll rate can use maneuvers that take advantage of their roll rate and increase their advantage incrementally every time they use it.

Here is a concrete example.

Suppose we have Aircraft A and Aircraft B and suppose that Aircraft A can turn at 18dps and has a 2dps turn rate advantage over Aircraft B that turns at 16dps. Normally, 2dps would be considered a decisive advantage in air combat, so pilot A would be expected to win. However, suppose pilot B has a 120dps roll rate and that pilot A has a 60dps roll rate. Now consider what happens in a turn…

A and B are turning hard for 10 seconds. So pilot A gains 20 degrees on pilot B and thinks he’s winning the fight. But now B rolls 120 degrees and then continues turning. To follow him, pilot A will need to roll for 2 seconds, but pilot B actually completed his 120 degree roll in one second, so he was able to continue his turn for a full second while pilot A was still completing his roll, at 16dps that means pilot B just gained back 16 of the 20 degrees. Okay, I hear you thinking, pilot A is still 4 degrees ahead. All he now needs to do is keep turning for the kill. Not so fast… The moment pilot B sees pilot A complete his roll and begin to turn into him again, pilot B repeats his previous 120 degree roll in another direction and now gains another 16 degrees. At the end of that pair of maneuvers, pilot B with the inferior turning aircraft will be 12 degrees farther around than his opponent, and he will gain another 16 degrees every time he does it. Of course, I only picked those numbers because they were easy to work with, they aren’t important. It is the principle that counts. In reality, the rolls won't just be random, as they may have sounded here, they will be made in accordance with sound BFM, but the frequency and extent will be deliberately timed to stay inside the adversary pilot's OODA loop and gain angles against a better turning aircraft using roll rate. As Boyd said, "Time becomes the critical determinant of combat advantage".

Each stage of the loop takes time and Boyd’s proposition was that the successful pilot will be able to process his OODA loop more rapidly than his opponent. In his own words, the successful pilot would "get inside his adversary's loop", thereby forcing the opponent to always react defensively. Boyd once said while describing what it was like to operate inside his opponent’s OODA loop: “It’s like they’re moving in slow motion.”  And there are many here who can confirm that is often what it is like to fight inexperienced or new pilots online.

Hope that helps make the idea feel a bit more concrete...

Badboy
The Damned (est. 1988)
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Offline potsNpans

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Re: Roll Rate Vs Turn Rate
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2026, 03:10:11 PM »
@reply 16 Badboy.
very helpful. Any one have a film on this would be great, I would want to see this in action :aok