Author Topic: Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery  (Read 2505 times)

Offline Crumpp

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2004, 09:04:32 PM »
Nope,

But I can say stupid things in three different languages and lift heavy objects.  We are more into strong back weak mind kind of stuff.

Crumpp

Offline Pyro

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2004, 11:38:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Arlo it sure does not seem that far and you sure cannot see another airplane 50 miles away.  



I don't know about that, I once was able to see a large plane(probably a 737) from around 70 miles away.

Offline United

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2004, 03:07:22 PM »
70 miles?  Thats a rather long way.  I can barely see the 747s flying over my house at 36000 feet or whatever it is.  Maybe thats due to my poor vision.

Offline Puck

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2004, 04:58:20 PM »
You also have to consider the air is enough thinner at altitude you can see farther.  Less dust, pollen, pollutants, particulates, and molecules between you and what you're looking at.  High altitude visibility is much farther.
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main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&

Offline Crumpp

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2004, 07:52:44 PM »
That is an EXTREME distance.  I am a Military Freefall Jumpmaster and trying to locate a Drop Zone/landmarks from altitude is tough much less a smaller object.  

You could be in a vacuum and I still have a tough time believing 50 miles.  How can U verify the distance was 70 miles Pyro?

I know the mind plays tricks with range estimation especially when you start displacing objects at angles above and below the viewer.  Many times I have found myself way off the mark when "eyeballing" long distances in mountainous terrain, only to find when I put a laser range finder to it, I am off by quite a bit.

Sure this was not one of those times?

It makes sense what you are saying about the air being clearer up at altitude for horizontal viewing distances but that is a heck of the long way!

Crumpp

Offline Pyro

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2004, 08:05:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by United
70 miles?  Thats a rather long way.  I can barely see the 747s flying over my house at 36000 feet or whatever it is.  Maybe thats due to my poor vision.


As Puck pointed out, atmospheric conditions play a big part.  We were both up around 35k+ out over the Caribbean and the air was about as clear as you'll ever see it.  I really have no idea what typical max viewing distances are for various sizes and colors as that was the only time I can recall viewing a plane from really far away and knowing the distance to it.

Offline Pyro

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2004, 08:31:54 PM »
Got interrupted by a phone call while posting and didn't see your post before I made mine Crumpp.  I knew the distance from radar.  I was an avionics geek in the Coast Guard and was consigned to the back of the airplane and didn't get to enjoy the view much.  One day in transit to a deployment, I picked up a long range contact on radar and got him locked up.  We were at a similar flight level and he was crossing our flight path at a shallow angle.  I slewed the IR pod to the radar lock and was surprised that I could get an IR lock on him at that distance.  I went up to cockpit to see if I could get a viz on him and I could make out the tiniest of specks which the pilot could too.  Of course, I knew exactly where to look and knew that something was there.  

As to Yeager's account, his distance estimation may be off, I don't know, but going by accounts of his squaddies there is no doubt that he could spot bogeys long before they would come into their range of visual acuity.

Offline Crumpp

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2004, 09:18:10 PM »
That's some good eyesight, Pyro.

Your must have eaten all your carrots.  Me, I shoved them under the table to the dog.

Crumpp

Offline Rasker

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2004, 11:41:02 PM »
I bet the Germans could see the unpainted silver 51's and 47's in formations reflecting sunlight from farther than 50 miles, to say nothing of the American buffs.

That no camoflage unpainted bit, besides saving weight and helping performance, was going for the morale of the Germans -"We're here, in large numbers, and we don't care if you know it, in fact, we *want* you to know how badly you're outnumbered".

Offline Crumpp

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2004, 11:45:40 PM »
Actually I think the silver is a better camoflage up at high altitude.  The USAAF did a study and concluded it was harder to see than a dark painted object.  Camoflage only works when you are flying near the ground.

Crumpp

Offline RTSigma

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2004, 09:26:16 PM »
What no one knows is that Yeagar brought binoculars into his plane with him along with some help with his friends from Hubble.

Sigma of VF-17 JOLLY ROGERS

Offline Glasses

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2004, 12:18:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
does glasses make you a nerd or do you need glasses because you are a nerd?

It's the eyesight. Those with good eyes are better marksmen and more likely to be shooting stuff, in the air or on the ground.

Bozon



Both :D

Offline Angus

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2004, 07:09:11 AM »
I once flew across Iceland in a Cessna 172.
Up at 12000 feet over the middle over the country,I could easily see both the northern and southern coast. That would be roughly 200 km in each direction.
It was a fine day, and the air here is very clear.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline hogenbor

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2004, 10:39:51 AM »
I wear glasses but with them I have 120% vision :D

As I've always used my computers to shoot at things (and shooting with actual guns is almost impossible where I live) I never had problems hitting things in AH, even now. Not excellent, but decently competent. Once got to 15% with the 30mm of the G-10.

Point is, maybe even without Mr. Yeager's background people can get reasonable shooters ;)

Offline J_A_B

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Yeager on Air-to-Air Gunnery
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2004, 07:38:14 PM »
Yeager claimed that he could make out formations of bogies at about 50 miles (I seem to recall him describing these formations as smudges against the sky which grew in detail as he approached).  This seems perfectly reasonable.   By 10 miles, he claimed to be able to make out individual fighters and ID them by model from most angles.  This, also, is not unreasonable since in that situation he only needed to ID an Me-109, Me-110 or Fw-190--all of which look drastically different from any angle.  Other pilots with unusually good eyesight, like Anderson, say very much the same thing.  Remember that these men had vision far surpassing ordinary, in the 20/10 range.  

The joke about Yeager bringing binoculars wasn't far off the mark--his natural vision WAS like having weak binoculars and he was the exception, not the rule.


On the opposite end of the spectrum, I would expect that someone like Golland or Sakai or Mannock, all of whom had legandarily bad eyesight, would not have been capable of doing that.  A computer game like AH without ICONS might not be too dissimilar from the experiences of these men.


As for the original debate--shooting ability is the second most important skill for a fighter pilot.  Good SA is number 1.  Actual ability to fly the plane is third.  

J_A_B