HOs - A Retrospective

[SpitLead]

I am getting really tired about all the whining about HOs in AH.  I swear if I hear it once a night I hear it a dozen times or more.  And, it usually seems to be the same people.  

Here's a data point for all you HO whiners out there.  On an interview on Wings Discovery Channel with Donald S. Lopez one of the Flying Tigers with 4 kills where he describes an HO pass on a Japanese Zero.  He passed so close his wing clipped the Zero and he lost part of it.  Sound familiar?   So, to think that HOs didn't happen or weren't part of REAL WWII dogfighting is being close minded.  Granted, it didn't happen all the time but it DID happen.  All HOs can be avoided.  IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO. REMEMBER THAT!  If you are being HO'd a lot, then you need to rethink your merge.  Sometimes the HOs are accidental (I thought he was diving and he pulled up at the last second, etc.)  This is a game and we are not putting our lives on the line so HO'ing is more prevalent.  Face it, strategically in this game some airplanes have a distinct advantage in an HO situation in terms of firepower (ME110, Tiffy, F4U-1C, Mossie, , Dora) with 4-20mm guns and/or lack of guns convergence (Dora, P-38, Yak-9T).   Some pilots choose to exploit that advantage.  If you know your opponents airplanes, and they are flying one of these types, then you should avoid an HO at all costs as likely you will be on the losing end.   If you choose to HO and lose then take your lumps and keep quiet.

[JB73]

Originally posted by SpitLead
...Sometimes the HOs are accidental (I thought he was diving and he pulled up at the last second, etc.)...

or you are merging from a scissors (or similar), you try to pull away from the HO bu the plane is in a semi-stall and he HO's.

im really getting tired of prople saying it always takes 2 to HO. it takes 1 jag to do it, and 1 to try and avoid. unfortuantely you can only avoid so far. even in a general flat merge...

if you start pulling up to the right, and he heads up to the left to try and keep the HO shot. then you counter by going down left opposite of where you were headed, and he at the last second noses down to make sure he gets that HO shot.

those are the jags that PO me. I am NO acm master, and probably never will be (i just dont get how to do some of the manuevers)... but there are plenty of times i do all i know to avoid the HO (my squad CO hates it and gets really PO'd at any squaddie that does HO, becuase dying leaves another squaddie alone) but whatever i do the enemy matches it to HO me.

[SpitLead]

Some good points JB.  One of the best ways I've found to avoid the HO is to merge with a climbing or slightly diving turn/arc.  Then, at best, the attacker only has a quick snapshot of you as you pass by.  It also sets you up for your lead turn to get on the attackers rear if you're flying a turn fighter.  In the turning merger/pass, the attacker would have to pass thru the stream a bullets in a deflection shot with a lotta lead.  It's a low percentage shot but sometimes it works. Merging in a straight line makes for a much easier shot.

[JB73]

yeah, i know exactly what you are saying... it's what i was trying to say LOL.

the problem lies in that "quick shot as you pass" thing. mostly it will be la7/n1k/typh that do the "i will HO you whatever it takes" manuever, and if they do land 1 hit you lose your stabilizer generally (from my experiance) if not that a pilot shot.

i have more HO's happen when going into a verticle fight after the merge too. especially if you go up and over, and the (spit for generalism) flat turns then climbs to you. as you are coming over the top he's stalling out and squeezes off all he can while you are just getting solid control in the down path.

whap whap pilot or radiator hit, and he's falling away from you.

doesnt matter if you kill him now, you arent getting home either. you just lost to an HO dweeb (lost in the sense that you will not land sucessfully).

those are the HO's that make most people upset IMHO. but i believe you get the idea. if 1 person is willing to kill themselves doing something, almost nothing is going to stop them.

[SpitLead]

JB, so a good tactic against a Spit like that is rather than doing the loop to come back down on his flat turn you pull up and sustain your climb.  Looking back you can see if he's doing a flat turn or going vertical with you.  If he's doing a flat turn he will loose enough energy not to follow.   You can then pull around and now you have the high ground coming down on top of him.  This tactic was done very effectively against me.  I was in a La7 and he was in an ME109.  I could never quite match his climb rate and no matter how hard I'd try to pull that nose up I'd never quite get the shot and either stall or fall away.  If you're looking back you'll see him fall away and then dive in on his 6.  

About the passing snapshot.  Personally, I don't consider that an HO move.  The name of the game is to get guns on the other airplane.  Without guns on, you have no chance to shoot him down.  If you can get a quick snapshot (i.e. the planes are NOT coming straight at one another) in the pass then you have every right to take it.  You'd be foolish not to.  And yes, those 4-20mms will do a lot of damage even with a quick snapshot.

[Tumor]

Originally posted by SpitLead
I am getting really tired about all the whining about HOs in AH.  I swear if I hear it once a night I hear it a dozen times or more.  And, it usually seems to be the same people.  

Here's a data point for all you HO whiners out there.  On an interview on Wings Discovery Channel with Donald S. Lopez one of the Flying Tigers with 4 kills where he describes an HO pass on a Japanese Zero.  He passed so close his wing clipped the Zero and he lost part of it.  Sound familiar?   So, to think that HOs didn't happen or weren't part of REAL WWII dogfighting is being close minded.  Granted, it didn't happen all the time but it DID happen.  All HOs can be avoided.  IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO. REMEMBER THAT! Same old line from all the HO kings If you are being HO'd a lot, then you need to rethink your merge.  Sometimes the HOs are accidental (I thought he was diving and he pulled up at the last second, etc.)  This is a game and we are not putting our lives on the line so HO'ing is more prevalent. and here you are saying it's realistic Face it, strategically in this game some airplanes have a distinct advantage in an HO situation in terms of firepower (ME110, Tiffy, F4U-1C, Mossie, , Dora) with 4-20mm guns and/or lack of guns convergence (Dora, P-38, Yak-9T).   Some pilots choose to exploit that advantage.  If you know your opponents airplanes, and they are flying one of these types, then you should avoid an HO at all costs as likely you will be on the losing end.   If you choose to HO and lose then take your lumps and keep quiet.[you fire your cakehole your way... I'll fire mine my way[/b]

[TequilaChaser]

It seems like some one has ruffled your feathers or possibly has belittled you Spitlead, by calling you a HO DWEEB?

from what I have read, you are one to pull up nose high in the vertical after the 1st merge and shoot head on, hoping to get a kill since you missed on the first merge with your HO?

noone ever said that HO's wasn't used in real life, but  they wasn't used primarily, the object was to gain a guns solution with out the opponent doing the same to you at the same time. This involved gaining angles to work your way to the bogey's 6 or behind the 3/9 line.

IF you prefer to HO then do it, just squelch channel 1 or the guy privately Iming you to call you a HO tard. You don't have to put up with his chitchat ya know!

It looks as this is your prefered attack method because you have explained how to avoid them but you decide not to, or you take the quick snapshot and then evade hoping to clear your enemy. So if you don't you can rev and get him on his downside of his vertical loop while he has no speed left to manuever.

Now if  HO or frontal shots were scored like the flak hits over a field or CV ( randomly) then you would really hear some whiners...... because they wouldn't be landing many sucessful sorties. They would actually have to learn how to gain angles and defeat their opponent for a change.

btw....who cares how you fly....enjoy the money you are spending each month to play.....if it isn't fun , why bother

[SpitLead]

Thanks for the feedback Tequila.  I, on occasion, have been called an 'HO dweeb' as you put it but who hasn't at least once.  Personally, I don't take it hard but that's me.  Sometimes it's the situation and sometimes it's an unjust call made by a frustrated pilot.  My real issue is the endless, mindless chatter on Channel 1 about HO'ing.   I was trying to explain HOs, that they do happen and how to avoid them that's all.  Maybe your idea about squelching Channel 1 has some merit.  I'll have to consider that. The downside is I miss the commraderie of the banter between pilots.  Guess I'll have to stop whining about the HO whiners and just squelch Channel 1

Spitlead

[Steve]

IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO. REMEMBER THAT!

Wrong... just plain wrong.

[simshell]

so what about IL2's MOSS bf110 P47 Chog 190a-8

is it wrong that they use there firepower and durabilty to kill your paper spit


when im flying a tank with huge guns il be trying hard for the head on shot because i know i cant out-angle a spitfire


chances say il live and kill that spit then trying to pull very hard to do moves to get a short lead shot in a inferior knife fighter

[Shane]

HOs make happy!!

[simshell]

Originally posted by Shane
HOs make happy!!

LOL!:rofl

[flyingaround]

Originally posted by JB73
(my squad CO hates it and gets really PO'd at any squaddie that does HO, becuase dying leaves another squaddie alone) but whatever i do the enemy matches it to HO me.

When we go up agains the JB's, I let the WidowMakers know they get an extra 2-hours in the WidowMaker Pleasure Barn (tm) if they shoot down JB42 with a HO shot.  It's kinda' become a standing joke.  You are right, it REALLY ticks off JB42 when he get's HO'd and dies.

Re. the HO.  I count on the nme going for a HO shot.  I don't just juke to avoid the HO, i'm merging off it.  They are at a severe disadvantage in position from takin' that HO shot.  I am usually 1/2 way into my move before they let off the trigger.  It's the ones that avoid it, or are guns cold that I tend to be a bit more defence oriented with.

Guys that come at ya' nose on guns blazing are another way of saying " I'm not very skilled, please kill me".  Survival of the fittest baby, and the HO'r guys are the ones you can easily pull from the herd and slaughter.

Don't just avoid it, use it.  It's pretty rare that I go down from a HO shot at the merge.  It will happens, say in a rope (scissors, whatever) that I mis-timed, that we end up HO'n.  Nutin' to get upset about.  I consider that my fault.  Don't be mad the snake bit you, it can't help it, it's a snake.  HO'rs HO.  It's where they are at in the learning curve.  It was MY fault for being out of position like that.  

-WMLute  III/JG26 9th ST WidowMakers

[BlkKnit]

I have not seen anyone mention a roll into the merge of a HO.  I fly Yak-9U quite a bit these days (when I actually play) and there is no way you wanna go HO in a Yak-9U, but I dont seem to be able to fully avoid them either.  So, what I do is start a fast roll at about 1.2. (used to do this in a 109 while firing / spraying and got a few kills with it).  Now in Yak, i hold my fire (except when i just cant control myself ) and make the roll, and with luck turning out of it to whichever direction seems best at the time (usually the wrong one for me, but thats just me).  Doing this i have only been shot down outright 1 time, a few others I took damage, but I'd say the 70 - 80% of the time I dont get hit at all.

Now, is this just crazy, or does anyone else do it?

[jaxxo]

The JB's ho just like anyone else..usually its with a 110 though. I cant seem to win 110 ho.s for some reason, takes practice I guess