Author Topic: Spitfire Mk. LF. IX vs Spitfire Mk IX (Read 3364 times)

Crumpp · « **Reply #90 on:** June 22, 2004, 08:28:49 AM »

You are correct Milo. We are quoting two different cruise speeds for two different objectives.

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.html

Milo Check out the BMW 801D chart on this website. I think you are quoting the "max economy settings" of 1.10ata at 2100U/min.

I am quoting the "Max Endurance settings" of 1.20ata at 2300U/min.

Guess that little bit of extra speed gets you farther down the line than going a little slower and burning less fuel per hour.

If you have more 190 performance charts please post them. The more data the more accurate a FM we will have. Yes, contrary to some folks opinion, it is best to have more than one source. The same A/C with different set-ups (propeller tuning, engine condition, airframe condition, atmospheric conditions, etc..) will give different performance figures. The more known's we have the less "best guessing with a slide rule" that will have to be done on the Unknowns.

Crumpp

Flyboy · « **Reply #91 on:** June 22, 2004, 08:30:27 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
Why do I seriously doubt this. 10-15 to 1 and you kill 7? Not even the best pilots in AH would accomplish this I am pretty sure.

yes, i did it, and not just once. its a matter of discipline after you establish a E advantage.

and im not that good of a pilot too. after flying only the 109g10 for a while, the spit9 feels like on EZ mode when roping cons (which is the way to fight the hord).

try it and you will see its not that impossible- just hope there are no smart pilots around

Wilbus · « **Reply #92 on:** June 22, 2004, 08:41:12 AM »

Well Flyboy, with E advantage, it's possible... thought you were jumped by em. And yeah, with any kind of better or average pilot around you'll be dead soon.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #93 on:** June 22, 2004, 09:47:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Squire
Very few L.F. IXs had clipped wings.

Have a look at all the photos you can find of Merlin 66 L.F. IX Spitfires (C or E wing) from 43-45 you will find few if any with "clipped" wings. They were a small #, and not the standard type in service. Truth be told I cant find a single pic of one, or any mention of a squadron using a clipped wing type.

The L.F. stood for its engine not its wings.

The more numerous "clipped" wing Spit was the L.F.V. (a 1943 version with a more powerful engine for low level performance).

The RAF/RCAF was perfectly content with the L.F. IX with its standard wings. If there was some drastic need to clip them to fight 190s I doubt that would have been the case.

You will find more examples of the Packard Merlin L.F. XVI Spitfire with a clipped wing, and some with a bubble canopy, but those are not Mk IXs. The main reason they went with a clipped wing in that version is because by late 44-45 they were mainly deployed in the fighter-bomber role. It had zip to do with Fw190s.

Some folks see a pic of a Spit XVI and they mistakenly i.d. it as a Spit IX with a clipped wing (they are very similar). I think this is the main cause for the "clipped wing IX" subject that keeps cropping up. I bet any pic you find of a "Spit IX" looking Spit with a clipped wing...dollars to dhonuts its a Packard Merlin Spit XVI.

How much you wanna bet?

And how many pics of clipped IXs you want?

Initially the clipped wing was for the Spit V as mentioned to increase the roll rate and help performance down low against the 190s in 43. But as mentioned the 44-45 Spit IX often had the clipped wings for the same reason and certainly the XVI since it was built specifically with the clipped wing for the ground attack roll.

You are correct that the LF designated the engine not the wing, but again as the air war became much more ground support oriented, it made sense to clip the wings on the IX.

My wish for a clipped IX/XVI is more based on the type of 'airwar' there is in AH which is the down lower, 'ground attack' kind of airwar. And being a Spit XII fanatic, I liked clipped wing Spits. I seriously doubt we'll ever get an XII however so an LFIXe/XVIe is about as close as I can hope to get

5 images of clipped non XVI Spits, 3 IXs and 2 VIII. I can post lots more if you want. Note that 3 of them are Med based Spits where the XVI never operated, while the other was operated by one of the Norwegian RAF squadrons. The small rounded tail is a giveaway that they are IXs and the serial ranges match IXs too.

Keep in mind, that the LFIXe and XVIe were essentially the same aircraft with the only real difference being the engine installed being either the Merlin 66 or the American built Packard Merlin 266. The airframes were the same as you can find photos of bubble canopy LFIXe's as well.

I have more clipped IX photos I can post if you want em

Dan/Slack
Spit LFIXe served with 127 and 129 Squadrons

Spit LFIXs with 601 Squadron in Italy

Spit LFIX 331 Squadron

Spit LFVIII 253 Squadron in Yugoslavia 1945

Spit LFVIII of AVM Dickson

MiloMorai · « **Reply #94 on:** June 22, 2004, 10:17:17 AM »

Quote

I am quoting the "Max Endurance settings" of 1.20ata at 2300U/min.

Maybe so but that is not how I read your original statement. You need to put the 1.20ata before most economical cruise speed so as not to make it look like you are claiming 355mph is the most economical cruise speed.

Anyways,
Lets just use the 7km/22,967' data as I have none for the altitude you say.

1.20ata/2300rpm - 1.48h, 775km, 580kph/360mph
1.02ata/2000rpm - 2.18hr, 1038km, 495kph/308mph

So to quote you, "The 190A8's most economical cruise speed was around 355 mph at 21,000 feet using 1.20ata with 2300U/min."

It is more economical at the lower ata and gets you further. So the "most economical cruise speed" is 495kph/308mph @ 7.0km @ 1.02ata @ 2000rpm.

Squire · « **Reply #95 on:** June 22, 2004, 04:13:07 PM »

I didnt say there weren't any, I said they were few (vs all produced). I would rather see a standard wing L.F. IX in AH if we got one, as most were configured that way.

You are right about the XVI being almost identical, thats true.

If I had a choice I would add a L.F. VIII with a standard wing, would make a nice addition, and an L.F. V version.

...and I stand by my point that many "clipped" IXs that are pointed out by many are in fact, VIIIs or XVIs.

Flyboy · « **Reply #96 on:** June 22, 2004, 04:55:04 PM »

ok i am convinced, give us the clipped IX
BUT only if it will be painted like this:

Flyboy · « **Reply #97 on:** June 22, 2004, 05:07:35 PM »

actually i prefer this scheme by much :

Crumpp · « **Reply #98 on:** June 22, 2004, 06:57:14 PM »

Check the chart, maybe I made a mistake in reading it. It is hard to get it to the exact KM/h. You have to count the lines and extrapolate.

I took the reading from the "best speed" altitude just to confirm Angus's assumption that the 190 (high wingloading) would have a high cruise speed.

I am confused at just what you are trying to say? The data for the BMW 801 is available to examine from BMW AND Focke Wulf on the FW-190A8. It is clearly marked "best endurance" and most economical".

Please just click on the link and examine the FW-190A8 chart AND the BMW-801 performance chart.

I think it will clear this up. Please send your data in from your '43 chart.

Thanks!

Crumpp

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.html

BTW we need to move this back to the 190A5 level speed thread or start a new one. Looks like our Spit 190 discussion is over.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #99 on:** June 22, 2004, 07:08:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Squire
I didnt say there weren't any, I said they were few (vs all produced). I would rather see a standard wing L.F. IX in AH if we got one, as most were configured that way.

You are right about the XVI being almost identical, thats true.

If I had a choice I would add a L.F. VIII with a standard wing, would make a nice addition, and an L.F. V version.

...and I stand by my point that many "clipped" IXs that are pointed out by many are in fact, VIIIs or XVIs.

Actually very few clipped VIIIs with many more clipped IXs. Many of the IXs that went to the Soviet Union were also clipped wing LFs.

And my choice would be a full span wing LF VIII with the Universal wing of 2 20mm and 4 303 and a clipped wing LFIXe/XVIe with the E wing of 2 20mm and 2 50 cals. with the 3 hard points for the 44-45 time frame.

A clipped V was not progress so much as desperation to give it some survivability.

For AH the later LFIX/XVI makes much more sense considering the nature of the game.

The Spit I covers 39-40, the Spit V covers 41-42 and an LFVIII would cover 43-44 as well as the Pacific, while the LFIX/XVI covers 44-45 and gives enough variety in performance and armament to make it worth it.

Dan/Slack

MiloMorai · « **Reply #100 on:** June 22, 2004, 07:50:50 PM »

Crumpp, to bad that site did not copy the other data pages in the Fw190A-8 Handbook. ie. the pages with the clean and various load configurations for 'Range and Endurance Calculations'.

Crumpp · « **Reply #101 on:** June 22, 2004, 08:06:23 PM »

That's Ok.

The Luftarchive has the pilots handbook for the FW-190 A1-A9 and the Technical manual for the FW-190A5-A8 bis A7 enroute to me now. Soon as they get here by airmail I will pour through them. Any charts or info I find will definately post on the website.

If you get them on CD the manuals are not very expensive. Around 16 bucks each and of course they are in German. I ordered the BMW 801D technical manual too.

Crumpp

Crumpp · « **Reply #102 on:** June 22, 2004, 08:12:52 PM »

Ohh one last thing....

Check out the 190A8 charts. So far we have with and without GM-1, 190A8/R2 (internal wingmounted Mk108's), and the FW-190A8 Normal Jager with clamshell gear doors with and without ETC-501 universal weapons mount.

Even have the climb rate chart for a BMW-801TS FW-190A9.

If you dig there is some really good stuff posted. Mandoble put the site together. I have just contributed a few things. It is a great place to consolidate our data to present to Pyro.

Crumpp