Sherman Tank

[GtoRA2]

Replicant
 The Panther is a way more effective tank then the Panzer IV. They are not even in the same ballpark. Almost nothing is, other then the T-34 85, the JS series, the Comet (that was the late war Brit 17pounder tank?)  and the US M26.

 The Panther is better then the tiger 1 in most regards.


 The 75mm gun on the Panther has much higher penetration then the one on either the tiger 1 or Panzer 4. The 88mm gun on the Tiger being a shorter barreled then on the later Tiger 2 and Jagpather.

The frontal armor on the Panther is better then the Tiger 1, Sherman, and T-34.


The Tiger one has an advantage in side armor over the Panther, the Panther was very vulnerable to side shots, even from the 75 on a Sherman.

From the front, the Tiger and panther were almost un-killable by anything short of the US 90mm, 17 pounder and the Russian 85.


Our 76 was an OK gun, worked well on everything but the Tigers and Panther, but it could fail at point blank to the front of those tanks.

The US 76 was a Naval 3 inch gun.

A bit of trivia, it has an APCR round that was more effective then the solid shot round but the APCR round was only issued to tank destroyer units early on, so the Sherman’s with the 76 were not as effective as the tank destroyers like the M10 and M18 with the same gun.

There is almost no difference between any of the early Sherman’s, the M4, M4a1 and A2 and A3 are all effectively the same tank with different motors or slightly different options. the armor and gun is the same.

The Tiger and Panther were more mobile over mud and rough terrain then the Sherman due to their much wider tread.

If the only tank the Sherman had to face was the Panzer 3 and 4 it would have been a OK tank. It was outmatched in just about every way by the Tiger and Panther. it's only edges being the stabilized gun, and reliability.

You want to know just how bad it was for American tankers? Pick up Belton Y. Coopers Death Traps.


I would love to see a Sherman, but would like it to be the best, the M4A3E8, the one with the long 76, and the HVSS tracks and a big ford V8, making it the best of the Sherman’s for firepower and mobility.

I would love to see a Panther as well but it would have to be another perk ride.

We really need the T-34 and the Sherman.

[Turbo11]

Rino, Wespe is a 2-man tank, 1 person controls the vehicle, and 1 person controls the cannon.

[Replicant]

Gtora2, thanks for the comments.  Although I realise how good the Panther was in real life I was uncertain how it would be superior to the PnzrIV considering the similarities between performance/armour to the Tiger I and PnzrIV.  What I'm trying to say is would we notice a distinctive difference between the PnzrIV and TigerI in AH.  By the sounds of it the main gun should be enough to kill the Tiger but at what sort of ranges?  The sloping frontal armour would definite be an advantage against the PnzrIV but any ideas vs the TigerI?

Which JS are you on about?

[emodin]

Originally posted by Turbo11
Rino, Wespe is a 2-man tank, 1 person controls the vehicle, and 1 person controls the cannon.

Actually, Rino is right, unless you are talking about some other "Wespe."  It was an open-top Self-Propelled Artillery vehicle (sporting a 105mm gun).

Info is  here

As for the T-34/85, it's main gun was not able to penetrate Tiger and Panther frontal armor at long ranges.  A main reason for this was the poor AP manufacturing in the Soviet Union.  I stil want a T-34/85, but I prefer that it is the 1944 version with the faster turret (the '43 had a slow turret).

[B17Skull12]

"Wittmann in Villers Bocage"

On 13th June 1944, a week after D-day, following a drive from Beauvais under repeated air attack, 2nd Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 led by Michael Wittmann had 6 Tigers located in the area of Hill (Point) 213 ahove Villers Bocage. His orders were to stop the advance of the 22nd Armored Brigade of the British 7th Armored Division (the famous 'Desert Rats') from advancing through the township, outflanking the German line and gaining the road to Caen. Wittmann's company hidden behind a hedgerow spotted the enemy column, which passed him at a distance of 200 meters. At about 8:00am, Wittmann attacked the British column on the main road, while the rest of his company (4 Tigers as one brokedown) attacked the British forces around Hill 213. Soon after, Wittmann destroyed Sherman Firefly and Cromwell IV and headed south to attack the rest of the enemy transport column. After knocking out 8 half-tracks, 4 Bren Carriers and 2 6 pdr anti-tank guns, Wittmann reached the crossroad with the road to Tilly-sur-Seulles. At the crossroad, he destroyed 3 Stuart tanks from recon unit and reached the outskirts of the town of Villers-Bocage. While in town, Wittmann destroyed 4 Cromwell IV tanks and single half-track and turns into Rue Pasteur. Following up the street, he knocked out Cromwell IV and Sherman OP tank, reaching the main street of Villers-Bocage. At the end of Rue Pasteur, Wittmann's Tiger was hit by Sherman Firefly from B Squadron and he decided to turn back as being too far forward without any infantry support and in a build-up area. He turned in the direction of Caen to join the rest of his company. On his way back, Wittmann's Tiger was attacked by another Cromwell IV, which he destroyed as well. Back at the Tilly crossroad, British soldiers from 1st Rifle Brigade opened fire at Wittmann with their 6 pdr anti-tank gun, immobilizing his Tiger. Wittmann and his crew managed to escape on foot towards the Panzer Lehr positions 7km away near Orbois. The rest of his company at the Hill 213, destroyed the rest of the A Squadron of 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment ("Sharpshooters") including 5 Cromwell IV and Sherman Firefly, while capturing 30 men. During this short engagement, Wittmann's company destroyed 4 Sherman Firefly, 20 Cromwell, 3 Stuart, 3 M4 Sherman OP, 14 half-tracks, 16 Bren Carriers and 2 6 pdr anti-tank guns. Wittmann's attack was followed by another one by Tigers of Hauptsturmfuehrer Rolf Moebius' 1st Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 and Panzerkampfwagen IV tanks from Panzer Lehr but was repulsed by anti-tank guns from 22nd Armored Brigade. Following day, British withdrew from the town leaving it to the Germans, who occupied it for next two months. The British drive on Villers Bocage and Caen was stopped cold by Wittmann's attack and following actions.

IMO the tiger1 was the best tank of the war.  The king Tiger (tigerII?) was good, but it lacked the manuverablity the tiger had and same goes for the jagdpanther i think.  In the right a Tiger could inflict damage only seen by people who spawn camp all day long like topgunz.

[GtoRA2]

Replicant
 The gun on the panther would be a bad threat to the Tiger at ranges 2000 yards and closer I bet. (maybe even longer)

I will have to go look through some books, but it was more effective then the gun on the tiger one by a good bit and almost as good as the 88MM KWk 71 gun on the Tiger 2.

By Js I meant Joe Stalin, the JS 1 2 and 3 though I only think the 1 and 2 saw action. They could give the Panther a scare and the Tiger 2 a run for the money.


Emodin, I agree the 85MM russian gun was not as much of threat, but more so then the US 76.


B17Skull12
 I am not sure what you are saying here?

[Replicant]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Replicant
 The gun on the panther would be a bad threat to the Tiger at ranges 2000 yards and closer I bet. (maybe even longer)

I will have to go look through some books, but it was more effective then the gun on the tiger one by a good bit and almost as good as the 88MM KWk 71 gun on the Tiger 2.

By Js I meant Joe Stalin, the JS 1 2 and 3 though I only think the 1 and 2 saw action. They could give the Panther a scare and the Tiger 2 a run for the money.

I've been in a JS2M (122mm cannon) but there's a bit of uncertainty whether it actually saw service though in WW2?  Do you have any information regarding this?  I have some photos from inside the tank and some external too.

[GtoRA2]

I willhave to check tonight. Most of my books are in storage


I think the King Tiger was a better tank the JS 1 and 2, but I would be the Russian had 2 or 3 JS tanks for everyone 1 Tiger 2.

[emodin]

IIRC, a couple of JS2s saw combat right before the end of the war.  The problem with that beast is the fact that it barely carried any rounds  (28).

GtoRA2, which armor books do you have on the T-34s (all versions)?  I'm looking for some good ones, but I'm unsure which l ones have an unbiased opinion.

[B17Skull12]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
B17Skull12
 I am not sure what you are saying here?

just adding to the thread and voicing a opion on WW2 tanks.

[Turbo11]

Yep, emodin, I am talking about another Wespe, looks nothing like that one.

[many_names]

Ok during world war II we didn't have an all-can-do tank.  The sherman was only there to help protect the infantry and take out light to medium denfensives.  Now when the shermans would see a tank what they were to do is to call up an tank-destory like an M10, or M18, or even better the M36, this are not tanks they are "Gun Motor Carriages" lightly armed, fast moving things, they had armour to were to protect them from small arms fire but nothing big at all. most of them had less then an inch of armour, that is why the hell cat went so fast.  They were to shot and get there buts out of there.

The M10
1943 - USA M-10 Gun Motor Carriage
Mounted on M4A3 Sherman Chassis.
Armament:        1 - 3 “ converted AA gun
                           1 - 0.5" AA MG
Engines;            2 - GM, 375 hp, 6 cyl., diesel
Speed;              30 mph
Range:              198 miles
Crew:                 5
Weight:              30 tons


M18

1943 - USA M18 Gun Motor Carriage "Hellcat"
Armament:       1 - 76mm gun
                            1 - 0.5" MG AA
Engine:             Continental, 9 cyl., radial air-
                             cooled, gas, 340 or 400 hp
Speed;               55 mph
Range;               105 miles
Crew:                  5
Weight;               17 tons

M36

1943 USA Gun Motor Carriage M36 "Slugger"
Mounted on a M4A3 Sherman Chassis.
Armament:      1- 90mm gun in new turret
                           1- 0.5" MG AA
Engine;            Ford GAA, V-8, gas, 500 hp
Speed:             30 mph
Range;             150 miles
Crew:                5
Weight:             31 tons

Beleave it or now the USA was designing a heavy tank as the world went to the end, THIS SUCKER IS HUGE.

[Raptor]

out of all the american tanks, tank destroyers and other ground vehicles... why the HELL did they add an M8 to Aces High? sure it can disable a panzer's turret with 1 shot, but takes atleast 6 shells to destroy the thing. no matter where you hit it. And only place on a Tiger that the shell doesnt bounce off is its track, and I have used 40+ hits on a tiger's tracks from point blank range with no effect.

[Arlo]

Ahem ... anyway ... as anyone can see, the Shermie is the pick for the western front. Obviously the T-34 for the Eastern. And it's not like these 2 can't be modeled at the same time. Not that I'd wanna swamp Pyro and HT and all but tank modeling's bound to be easier than plane modeling (well, I hope so anyhow - no FM to work out - just get the speed, armor, punch and cosmetics).

Cool to see some real hardcore Allied armor freaks here that think their particular favorite uber-armored something or other deserves to be modeled ahead of the Shermie because it had 2 examples made before war's end or because it was the first to mount a 1000 mm mega-destroyer particle beam cannon and could roll at 2 mph or maybe it was the Ferrari of tanks and could actually outrun a shell fired at it. But you know that I know that you know that I know that it's the Shermie, baybee. Shermies vs. Panzers. It works. Use tactics.

[Tilt]

Studebaker truck.............. with trailer

Camo  netting and slit trench when deployed. Takes # secs to deploy

Load outs options

Trailer

8 double  rocket rails (16)

or

5" field gun

or

88 mm field gun

or

37mm field gun

or

field supplies.


Truck Bed

32  x 185mm katyusha rockets

or

# x 5" shells, AA, HE,

or

# x 88mm shells, AA, HE, AP,

or

37mm ammo, HE, AP etc

or

#  x troops (more than 10)

or

GV supplies