Author Topic: HO dweebiness (Read 370 times)

RAM · « **on:** March 10, 2000, 11:06:00 PM »

Well many of you must have seen me talking tonite about HO dweebiness on channel 1, in MA.

I was tonite over F7 in a spitIX, at 29K more or less, when I saw a p38 coming real FAST towards me, at 2-3K more than me. Of course I faced him...I wont put my 6 in front of a Higher faster P38...so I faced him and merged avoiding his HO with a shallow dive, not shooting myself (why? well I'll explain it later). I looked backwards expecting to see the 38 doing a Hi yoyo or something like that...no,no, he extended (?). As I again refused to present my 6 to the higher faster p38, I faced him again...merge, useless p38's HO...and extend...AGAIN!. Same story...he tried to move away (I guess he was low on fuel) and I tried to follow...eventually I matched his speed...he started a dive and I was going to follow him...when another P38 4K higher than me came for me...I faced him ,avoided HO and lets dance again...HE ALSO TRIED TO EXTEND!!!...no try for a hi yoyo, no try for rope a dope...only extend...but this time I saw a P51 coming fast so I started a gently dive to win speed and have some meaouvers to avoid attacks. At 350mph ,and with one of the 38s near me on my 6 I pulled 4G to start a vertical scissor...and my wing ripped (see bug reports' thread on this).

Well, Rook P38s...you acted as REAL dweebs. I am not telling that a HO is dweeb move...

lets see the 4 possible situations...

1)Higher E on the merge:
As many of you know, In MA I fly a lot Fw190s. So I know what Im talking about. When you are in a fw190 (the worse dogfighter here) 100mph faster and 3k higher than a SpitIX (best all around dogfighter here), I NEVER do a HO...it is STUPID to risk all the advantage I have in a HO that can make him,me or both go down. I have the advantage I can put my plane in his 6...so it is STUPID to do a HO...
P38, your move was STUPID. Is hard is strong but is like that. and note you NEVER hit me on HOs...cuz I didnt want a HO to happen...me that I was with HALF your E!!!!...you prolly owe your life to it, cuz I REALLY know how to HO (see,I was a dweeb not so long ago,and I HO succesfully a lot!!

)...but I knew I was likely to die also and I didnt want it to happen.

2)Co-E on the merge:
In this situation it is a DWEEB move to HO the spit on my Fw190. Why? well we are all humans we all can do a mistaken maneouver so again why risk all in such a risky move?...lets see if I can win E on him on a blunder he may do. If he does none, then I are going to lose E more fast than he in the maneouvers, so I move to 3rd example. If he does a blunder then I am on higher E situation. See 1st example avobe.

3)Lower E on the merge:
here depends the planes you are using. Here you must know if you are able to disengage or not. If you are able to run away and survive, again HO it is a Dweeb move. If you can't run away and disengage, and you are on a good TnBoomer, then you CAN win still...THATS WHY I AVOIDED P38's HOs. I knew that I was in a bad situation, but I can still win advantage and win the combat, or at least RTB. Note that I MANAGED to do it...when the other guys came for me I was in a co E situation with the p38...BUT ON HIS 6!!!!!
If you are on a bad TnB plane and you cant disengage, then HO is a wise move (in fact the only chance, unless a blunder happens).

4)you are alone vs a superior number of cons:
HO,turn and run at will!!!

here all is valid because you are nearly ded

...
Note:I still dont HO on these if I can avoid it. 5 days ago I was on SpitV alone on F20 versus 5 ponys (hehehe, hello wardog, packrat, hangtime...<S> guys).I killed 4 and made one to ditch. I didnt HO ANY ONE OF THEM...because I was on a impressive TnB plane and I could kill people without risk myself on a HO.

SO...Rook P38s...(both)...DWEEB MOVES!!!
I love a good fight and I love it even If I lose. Idont mind me being killed, I mind that i spent 10 minutes of combat to avoid 3 HOs, run after a dweeb P38 and go down by a wing ripping at 350mph

This was my most boring fight since I came in here.And when I told in #1 channel that those p38s flew as dweebs,I got many angry answers telling many things...some ok, some not so Ok

...

And excuse me about all that radio traffic on Channel 1.

I know I talked a lot

and that I got many strong answers

------------------
Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-10-2000).]

By-Tor · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2000, 11:29:00 PM »

Well RAM, reading your post, it is readily apparent that you are a vet and well schooled in ACM and tactics.I to get aggravated when a newbie does something dweebish and takes the enjoyment out of an engagement you had expected to be a challenge.That said you(and I) need to remember that a less experienced pilot has a much smaller 'bag of tricks' to
draw upon.Having just come from WB I can tell you that the avg. pilot skill in AH is greater and you will see less Dweebishness as the pilot skills continue to advance.If you come across me-I promise to try to gain angles with a lead-turn rather than force the
'crapshoot' HO.

RAM · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2000, 11:35:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by By-Tor:
Well RAM, reading your post, it is readily apparent that you are a vet and well schooled in ACM and tactics.

Crap, no...I'm 22 years old and I got my Internet connection 2 months ago!! (and I am here only since a little more than one month) (Image removed from quote.)
All I said up there was learned the hard way on the Main arena,or (much of it),because I am on a top-level squad and you learn a lot from the pilots there.I also fly a lot in Training Arena.

I agree, here are many newbies (I still am one of them,though), but when I said the p38s that they acted as Dweebs they got angry...so I guess they WEREN'T so newbies (Image removed from quote.)

In fact I remember the name of the guy that got my "rip-wing-kill" (Image removed from quote.)...I believe he was one of the p38s...and I am sure he is no newbie. (Image removed from quote.)

------------------
Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-10-2000).]

Dago · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2000, 11:49:00 PM »

I dont mind all your chatter on Ch1, I squelch channel 1.

Mostly due to guys like you who chatter constantly it is annoying, so I avoid it. The shame is I miss some of the funny stuff, and I also dont mind helping anyone who comes on ch 1 with a question or needs help.

Seems funny, you complain about the other guy doing HO's, but you admit "so I faced him and merged" and "I faced him again...merge," and "I faced him,". Seems while you were avoiding shooting on the HO merge, you were none the less contributing to being in an HO situtation. Then you get mad at them for not doing what you wanted them to do. Extending from a fight with a good turning aircraft (like a spit) is not always a bad thing when you are in a plane with an E advantage. Having and retaining the E advantage lets you control the fight, dictate the terms, not be drawn down to a position where the advantage of superior E is lost.

Seems to me the biggest mistake here was "I pulled 4G to start a vertical scissor...and my wing ripped". It doesnt take long in Aces High to find the point of airframe overstress and learn to avoid it.

As far as inferring all the other guys are HO Dweebs, you might want to consider the fact that there is no such thing as a single plane HO. If both planes havent pointed noses at each other, an HO wouldnt exist. There are tactics that will prevent a plane with superior E from getting a shot on you without going nose to nose.

My recommendation is you consider better what you might have done to avoid these situations, and dont blame others because they dont do what you want them to do. If you want predicability, drag out an old copy of Aces of the Pacific.

Dago

Toffer · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2000, 11:56:00 PM »

Nope RAM I am no rookie (Alot better and some worse I'll call myself middle of the food chain). But you didn't tell the whole story.

What about the 4 other Knights that wre co-alt or just 2k lower? Did you expect me to get in a turn fight with you when you have the better turning plane? (now THATS dweebness) Did you expect me to blow all my E and let your buddies have their way with me? (Nope not going to do it)

I achived what I wanted ( those cannons facing away from me).

If thats Dweebness then I'll shout to the world I'm a dweeb.

I didn't here you on #1 I had is gagged.

Sorry if I affended you , But I Wont fight your fight, I'll try to make you fight mine.

RAM · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2000, 11:58:00 PM »

Well dago...what do you suggest me to do?...put my six on the p38's face? LOL

Man, be serious...I HAD to avoid his attacks, and surely turning away I wont avoid anything but staying alive!!!.
The only way was to face him. And as dying wasnt one of the what-to-do things on my clipboard, i AVOIDED his HOs from less than 1.2K...

Excuse me, man, it you say that at 30K a 100mph lower speed Spitfire can out turn a P38 then you are telling me you NEVER gone up there in Sissyfires. Only effective way to fight up there is E-fighting. TnB must be done lower...and going low to be killed wasn't on my clipboard what-to-do things also.I had much less E than P38. Are you telling than the only way to beat a much lower E spitIX is HeadOn??? LOL!

then if he is co-E what do you do?...you bail directly??? LOL!!!
And I suspect that if he is Higher E than you you commit suicide!!! ROTFLOL!!!

Well so we really have an invincible plane here. Yep,man sissyfire rulezzz!!! LOL!

now, seriously. You cant believe what you said. Man, a much lower E Spitfire is a Dead spitfire, as it is any other plane here. Energy is life, even in TnB fights. I coulnd't reverse tables on that P38,at that altitude P38 keeps E WAY better than SPitfires. And anyway, put us on the deck. He is 4K over me. He is 100mph faster than me. If he pilots well, I am ded!!!!

Spitfire isn't Miracle-plane. It turns well and keeps well Energy. But it has no afterburners!!! lol!

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-11-2000).]

Sundog · « **Reply #6 on:** March 11, 2000, 12:03:00 AM »

Actually it was me in the head on, and I wasn't about to turn and bleed energy. Also, I couldn't have become angry at anything you said because I fly with channel 1 squelched.

I fly the spit often enough not to yo-yo a spit with a 38, since the 38 has a low roll rate. You also fired at me in the second HO. And since you could have easily turned away in the HO (Which you didn't..although you did dive under the first time since you had the excess E as I was climbing after just jettisoning two DTs) I guess that makes both of us Dweebs, since you also had the choice not to HO. Yet you chose to HO.

Of course as far as the term Dweeb goes, you were in a Dweebfire. But it was the 9. I prefer the V ;-).

Remember when anyone whines about the HO, it takes two to HO. In fact, with the Spit IX's combo of roll rate and turn rate, I would have scissored the spit before the merge and rolled in on the 38s six. Which is what I expected you to do. Which is why I extended.

I guess the best that can be said of this is always expect the unexpected.

RAM · « **Reply #7 on:** March 11, 2000, 12:23:00 AM »

Heya, sundog...

Well some notes...
I saw a lot of people angry. You could have been well the second P38,not the first. You could be even the p51. I know that many people reacted so I thought that some of them could have been on the first P38.

About Hi Yo-yo. At 31K I cant win E. MAN pressure gauge was VERY low by altitude. And you have 2 Allisons, and a good Hi-alt fighter. So I coulnd't do anything but avoid you. I got the impression you were much faster than me (you were I was only 130 IAS). So a Hi yoyo wasnt followable by me.Damn I had problems even to turn and face you!!!! At that altitude your acceleration is much better than mine. Your WEP works while mine is useless (no MAN gauge change in WEP). So you had a HUGE advantage.

Yes I fired on second HO...from 1.5K. I use to do it as distraction, to make you think that I accepted the HO and so win some time (I was VERY VERY low speed here and the plane was slowww to guide). At 1.2k I pushed nose down and dived under you. I wasnt going to hit you at those ranges and I knew it perfect.But if you took me as a newbie then you wont push until you noticed my move and so you would miss me. It worked fine.
Sorry,but I dont take this as a Ho by me. I even fired only MGs,not cannons.

I could've turned away?? really?? lower than you ,slower than you on a plane with less top speed than yours?...excuse me but I cant. To turn away from you was my death and as I said before to die wasnt on my plans

Spitfire is a nice plane, easy to fly and stable. AS I only have a 2 button yoke with a little throttle on it, and no rudder pedals, I cant afford to fly anything less stable (190 also is very stable). So the fact I sometimes ride on Sissyfires has nothing to do with dweebiness

I only faced you.Not HO you. I hoped you tried to do something different, I would've tried to win you in a VERY difficult situation (very unlikely). I was very slow, so I couldnt use any of Spit's advantages on turn and/or roll. I couldn't afford to dive to win speed cuz you would bounce me till the death.

I wanted something...different. I still think was a boring fight...but at least i see you did HO me because you thought I was much faster than I were...

then the maneouvers have more sense...(but I still expected something more aggresive...something likely to give you a victory)

I really believe you'd have got me. I was dissapointed by the fight I expected much more.

And BTW wing ripping or not I was already ded with 3 cons on my 6...so I dont say anything about that...

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-11-2000).]

Hristo · « **Reply #8 on:** March 11, 2000, 01:33:00 AM »

And what about the dead 6 dweebiness ?

With fighters it is great, but soooo many pilots attack buffs from dead 6, and then both go down. Fun to see it tho

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-11-2000).]

RAM · « **Reply #9 on:** March 11, 2000, 08:56:00 AM »

For Toffer:

Well I thought Sundog was the first p38, But now I dont know...lets see who was the P38 over f7, that HO-ed me twice extending after it???

I thought it was sundog...but I'll answer you...Over F7 there were people on 15-25K none avobe that except me and Sourkrau who was several miles away a little lower than me. I dont see why this makes you avoid making a HI yoyo after the first merge. As I coudnt turn well cuz I was slow and couldnt accelerate, I was doomed. You dont need to turn with me!!!! Hi yoyo is a E_fighter move ,not TnB. So again I must disagree with you.

If we were 7K lower, I would have understand the extends (but not the Headons), cuz at 20-25K spit accelerates well and builds E very fast. At 30K MAN gauge was low low low, and I accelerate much slower than you...

I Still think the HOs-extends were very wrong moves

Dago · « **Reply #10 on:** March 11, 2000, 10:40:00 AM »

Well Ram, in the 4 years I have been doing this, yes I have flown the spitfire. ALOT. Probably 90% of the time.
Basically, pointing into a higher E plane is one of the manuevers that must be used if you are absolutley lacking E, but if you are at any altitude, you have choices. Going HO isnt the one to take tho. You may or may not realize it, but the P38 is probably one of the best planes to be in during an HO. All of its guns are nose mounted and it suffers very little from convergance. The spit on the other hand, due to gun spread is much more likely to place less ammo into the enemy at the start of an HO.
Sundog is right in that you could have, and given you had E, should have started an aggressive scizzors manuever. The spit will out scizzors a 38 due to the spits better roll rate.
And Sundog would have been a fool to bleed off his E. I seriously doubt you were the only con around, and after dealing with you he still would have had them to contend with.

I think the only one who looks bad in this is you for complaining. If you intend to post a whine everytime a fight doesnt go your way, and you die, you will get carpal tunnel syndrome and you will lose the respect of everyone in the game.

Dago

jmccaul · « **Reply #11 on:** March 11, 2000, 11:04:00 AM »

RAM : a barrel roll is a nice defensive, you can keep a bit of e for a snap shot and don't present a large target area like a break.

P.S. I think the spit's E-retension is better than the P38 at any altitude - the 38 might have e income at 30k though (not sure)

RAM · « **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2000, 11:28:00 AM »

Negative, Dago...I knew I was likely dead when I saw that P38. As I said before I dont mind being killed, as long as the fight has been a good one. But the one yesterday was boring for me. Sorry if I sound as whining but It was boring.

About Scissors...come on...I know how to scissor. See, I can send you a couple of films that I have on SPitIX in wich I kill multiple higher-E cons on me in a few time,one of them a good example, when I had a fight vs a SPitV and P38 on my spitIX. I am not bad doing Vert or Horiz. scissor. BUT to start a scissor DAMN YOU NEED SPEED!!!! I couldnt EVEN turn to face the P38, let alone to start a scissor!!!!!! Scissors are one of my favorite maneouvers. IF i didnt start one is BECAUSE I COULDN'T!!!

And NO I WONT go down to win speed. All friendly cons were much lower than us, and assuming the p38 was well piloted ,he could bounce me at will if I go down...SO NO WAY here!!!...only way to me to stay alive was...well really was what the combat saw. Me facing him, he HOing me and extending. As each HO happened we lose some altitude both. As we were going down , My Merlin engine recovered MAN pressure and I could regain enough speed to follow his second extend. If after the first merge he would've Hi-yoyoed, then I was DEAD!...it is as clear as that.

Man I am saying that I was dead! and I could have escaped after the second merge, when I followed him at long distance after he extended (I admit I got greedy here, was a Dweeb error of mine, but as I said before I am a one month newbie still). In the first merge I assumed I was going to die so I dont mind that I went down. I do mind that I had a 10 minute boring engagement, an engagemen that could've been fun.

And dont worry DAgo...Many people know me already. I love good fights and I always <S> those who kills me in a fight...unless it is as boring as yesterday. So I really dont believe that I am going to lose respect of the people asking for better fights,not boring ones.

To Jmccaul: over 27K the spitIX loses MAN pressure VERY fast. At 30K it is a VERY sluggish plane, while the P38 can climb still VERY well,and has a way better acceleration than the Spit. HE got all cards and he bleeded all his advantage doing those Headons...because in each one I dived under him. After 2nd HO we were at 27K, so my engine MAN boosted, and so I was on a way better situation.
------------------
Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-11-2000).]

jmccaul · « **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2000, 06:26:00 PM »

RAM : i was just saying that the spit should have better e-retension regardless of altitude as an aside as you said the 38L had much better e-retension at 30k. The 38 may have better e-income but thats a different issue on which i couldn't comment due to lack of knowledge.

For what its P38L climbs at approx. 1500 fpm at 30k according to HTC's chart so fighting at 30k isn't easy in any plane so perhaps it's just best to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Sundog · « **Reply #14 on:** March 11, 2000, 06:46:00 PM »

FYI..the First 38 over F7 was Toffer...he was trying to drag you to me. But he thought he was outnumbered over f7!

As for agressive maneuvers, I usually am more agressive, however, I haven't flown the 38 much and personally, I fly it more like an `E' fighter currently due to it's inertia.And I do agree with you, it was a boring fight..but really wasn't even a fight..lol. I try to stay hi, at least in a plane unfamiliar to me, until I know what all the local cons are (enemy or friendly)before I commit in a fight as this effects the tactics I use as well.

P.S.- Buy a joystick!

With that yoke, you should have been in the P-38!