Author Topic: something ive noticed......  (Read 958 times)

Offline Overlag

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something ive noticed......
« on: June 22, 2004, 09:30:59 PM »
this will be a whine to some i guess but i dont care :p

Bish + low numbers + ganged = horde from knight/rook bases towards nearest bish base...ok?

what did we do in the old days of AHI?? Pork fuel, HORDE stops.

Now we have nothing but the exit button......

whats my rating out of 10?
what can we 100bish do against 300 reds???
what do you do?
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline mechanic

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Re: something ive noticed......
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2004, 09:41:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
this will be a whine to some i guess but i dont care :p

Bish + low numbers + ganged = horde from knight/rook bases towards nearest bish base...ok?

what did we do in the old days of AHI?? Pork fuel, HORDE stops.

Now we have nothing but the exit button......

whats my rating out of 10?
what can we 100bish do against 300 reds???
what do you do?


knights were always outnumbered in AH1.

only way we did our fighting was in well run and co-operative squads.

(LTAR, MAW, WMs, NDM, and many more)

my advice would be to work more as a team, and form up squads that are worth something rather than hundreds of miniature, uneffective, 3 man squads. Remember the battle of britain?

you are only held back by the people who say they 'log off when bish are outnumbered'

this is the most stupid thing i have ever heard!

"the house is burning so i may aswell set fire to the garage too"

is this your fightin spirit?

keep at it overlag, fight hard and die with honour!
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Overlag

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2004, 10:54:33 PM »
my "whine" isnt about numbers, its about the lack of options when it comes to stopping hordes/gangs
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline Jackal1

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2004, 11:09:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
my "whine" isnt about numbers, its about the lack of options when it comes to stopping hordes/gangs


:D  That`s what we been saying all along. You stop the bombing or taking out of fuel  or you "camoflauge" the strat targets and you are gonna get the effect of who`s got the biggest hord. That`s exactly what`s happened.
  It`s not just one side getting this, it`s every side.
  I`ve seen all  the talk about how awesome the realism is in AHII. Some of it is and it is really awesome, but the best I know as far as realism goes is if you drop an explosive on a fuel tank in RL the baby is gonna explode. It`s not going to take it down to 75% and no drop tank level, it`s gonna burn baby burn.
  Now we are seeing the direction of "furball only" or what you described  as who`s got the biggest hord.
  I always said if you couldn`t up a cap for the base then you didn`t want it or it wasn`t important anyway. The whines against this were always lame and as it stands they have gotten their way.
 I say either go with realism or turn the sucker into a furball only and put 3 bases in and be done with it.
  Now let the party start. :D
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 12:27:49 AM by Jackal1 »
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Offline Tumor

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Re: something ive noticed......
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2004, 11:12:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
this will be a whine to some i guess but i dont care :p

Bish + low numbers + ganged = horde from knight/rook bases towards nearest bish base...ok?

what did we do in the old days of AHI?? Pork fuel, HORDE stops.

Now we have nothing but the exit button......

whats my rating out of 10?
what can we 100bish do against 300 reds???
what do you do?


Not sure I agree with porking stoping the horde... in fact, IMO the building battlers had quite the opposite effect in AH1.  I've seen more quality mass furball fights in AH2 in the last week than I saw in AH1 in the last year.  Sure, you lose a base, you gain a base, but I haven't really seen a stampede yet... the hordes are still there, but there are lots more folks mixing it up now that Sir Porkalot has been castrated.  Just tonight for the better part of the evening there were two spots I could go to and find some very cool action... just like way back when.

Tumor
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Offline Virage

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2004, 01:19:08 AM »
takes 1 bomber formation to close FHs at a small base.

takes 2 to close FHs at a medium base.

adjust your tactics.
JG11

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Offline GScholz

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2004, 01:30:40 AM »
Why is there a difference in mentality between the "nations" of AH? Back in '02 and '03 when the Rooks were outnumbered most of the time I had a great time. There was a lot of cooperation and a sense of purpose and unity among the Rooks that I feel is missing now. I flew for the Knits a while back seeing how they were outnumbered like we Rooks used to be. I thought the Knits would be like the Rooks of old, but alas they were not. From my experience the Rooks are still the "country" that cooperates the most, and that has the greatest sense of unity and purpose ... even if it's just a shadow of what it used to be.

I wonder why that is?
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Offline Overlag

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2004, 02:02:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Virage
takes 1 bomber formation to close FHs at a small base.

takes 2 to close FHs at a medium base.

adjust your tactics.


ah yes, but with wind layer at 10k what are you suppose to do? fly through the horde of niks, lalassss and peeepee51s?
.


the game is setup for 100% furball right now, only problem is you cant have a furball when its 300v100:(
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline GScholz

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2004, 02:06:49 AM »
Learn to compensate for wind.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Virage

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2004, 09:02:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
ah yes, but with wind layer at 10k what are you suppose to do? fly through the horde of niks, lalassss and peeepee51s?
(


come in from an angle other than the horde stream.

you won't find anyone defending the base.
they are all racing each other vulch.
JG11

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Offline SlapShot

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2004, 09:17:40 AM »
The extinction of "fuel porking" has nothing to do with the "Horde" and its existence. The "Horde" will always be there.

If you want to stop the "Horde" then go destroy the barracks. That will stop them dead in their tracks.

The elimination of "fuel porking" is really an advantage against the "Horde". Before, the front line of a "Horde" would first target all the fuel at a base so that the defenders would not have enough fuel to up and try to push back against the "Horde". Now, that is not a factor.
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Offline Overlag

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2004, 10:07:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
The extinction of "fuel porking" has nothing to do with the "Horde" and its existence. The "Horde" will always be there.

If you want to stop the "Horde" then go destroy the barracks. That will stop them dead in their tracks.

The elimination of "fuel porking" is really an advantage against the "Horde". Before, the front line of a "Horde" would first target all the fuel at a base so that the defenders would not have enough fuel to up and try to push back against the "Horde". Now, that is not a factor.
..


come play bish and say that. the only way to kill a horde, is to kill its fuel. Its kinda funny, HTC going for realism yet they stopped fuel porking?

killing barracks stops nothing other than base capture for like 15minutes, instead the horde just keeps coming vulching the stupid people that up, within 15minutes a goon from else where comes up.
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline Charon

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2004, 10:52:01 AM »
Quote
Its kinda funny, HTC going for realism yet they stopped fuel porking?


In RL fuel porking involved a strategic bombing campaign against oil refineries.

I can't recall a single example where part of the mission involved specifically targeting fuel at an airfield (which could be dispersed in drums under netting and other camoflage virtually anywhere around the base).  

That's not to say these targets might or might not have been noted in a mission briefing (if known), but the general pattern seems to have been -- make a pass or two, hit what you can and get the hell out. The airfields in RL were often defended at a level probably 10x more leathal than in AH. If there happened to be a fuel bowser that pops up in the 1-2 runs being made at full speed on the deck, then great!

The only example that really springs to mind where a tactical fuel attack opportunity existed (that was missed) was Pearl harbor, where the fuel oil reserves (for ships) were set up in large outdoor tanks. Later they finished carving out a volcano to use as a big tank that made even these resources virtually impossible to destroy.

There were some examples in the BoB where a shortage of fuel bowsers was a minor (and individual unit?) issue related to both damage and a general shortage at the start of the war. There were also examples of planes being caught in the process of refueling, but again the advantage here was that it aided in the destruction of the planes, not the reduction of the fuel supply.

Maybe we need a start concept that involves actual strategic attacks? [but then the strat players would actually have to use strategic weapons and plan mission that involved bombers, escorts and maybe fighter sweeps.]

Charon
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 01:10:00 PM by Charon »

Offline Grimm

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2004, 02:40:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
Maybe we need a start concept that involves actual strategic attacks? [but then the strat players would actually have to use strategic weapons and plan mission that involved bombers, escorts and maybe fighter sweeps.]

Charon


The Strat Targets are there already, and if completly crushed, can be devesating to a country.   Iv only seen this done once during the RJO "Big Load"  where all resources were deticated to flattening every strat target on the map.   once down and a few pork runs,  the country was crippled and could not really compete.

The Problem is it takes country wide cooperation to do this effectively.    

So,  I would say the system is in place and does work,  but the level of cooperation needed to make an effective attack,  makes it pretty much impractical.    

Perhaps it still needs to be tweaked somehow to make level bombing more practical for the masses.

Also, on most nights people would prefer to battle air to air and not worry about the strat.   I know unless something interesting is in the works,  Id rather just have some good fights.

Offline Charon

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something ive noticed......
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2004, 04:19:19 PM »
Quote
So, I would say the system is in place and does work, but the level of cooperation needed to make an effective attack, makes it pretty much impractical.  


Then it doesn't really work if it's 10x easier just to steamroller a base into submission. I can't recall ever noticing an impact on my gameplay from the strat system -- not that some factor might have been reduced to some minor degree had I checked.

My thoughts (among many that have been developed aimed at a similar goal) involve a system where you would have to eliminate a zone strat target to capture a base. Super fast rebuild times, etc. at the fields without having that strat target down. Normal or even increased rebuild times at a specific field (or no rebuild even) after that. A rebuild time of 1 hour or so on the strat target itself. The strat targets because of distance, size and/or defense with super heavy low alt ack would require strategic bombardment to destroy.

Once the strat is down the base could be captured in the normal swarming/cap manner. But, you could make base resupply (barges/truck/rail) more active (volume) once the strat target is down. You would have to dedicate resources to keep them in check as part of the mission/campaign.

What I belive this would accomplish is:

1. A role for dedicated bomber types and dedicated LW interceptor types that has a solid, critical impact on the war. There would always be the need to hit a strat target in any given zone, and a need to defend the target with a greater chance of actually having targets to shoot at. Escort types would also find plenty of action. High altitude fighters could shine in their element.

2. A dilution effect. The action will get spread out as resources are spent on the strategic campaign, resources are spent interdicting more crucial supply targets (all that strategic work down the drain for that airfield if the convoy gets through) and multiple field attacks as the standard jabo types work to maximize the window of opportunity while the strat target is down. You could even make taking a big airfield a GV only process to give the tank drivers a role.

By dilution, I mean sizeable groups doing specific tasks, not rarity of action. Nobody likes to be on the receiving end of a 10 v 1, and some of us don't much like to be on the giving end in that type of fight either. I would guess (only a guess) there would be more fights with better odds and fairly good numbers in each.

3. A strat challenge. Taking airfields would be hard, resistance would be easier, lone milkrunning would be difficult, a reset may only happen 1/2 as quickly (if that) and would require (as mandatory) some level of organization and execution but provide some real sense of accomplishment too. I'm a furballer, and generally always have been in these types of A2A MMOL games back to SVGA AW (FWIW I did far more attack combat when there was only the "central neutrals" and taking a base got you the reward of being closer to the action for A2A). But... I can easily put in pasty skin, marriage threatening hours at a game like Civ. 3. Back in the day I played Interstel's Empire for 18 hours straight before without even knowing most of a day had passed. I can see having some actual interest in the AH strat component if it wasn't just steamroller tic-tac-toe.

Other approaches such as a "shifting front" or a war won by point accumulation etc. offer some valid alternatives to field capture (and may be superior from a strat model standpoint), but might be too radical a change or require too much reworking, IMO.

Charon

[edit: Now for this, you might just need to have "generic" strat targets. They can still be  a refinery or factory or whatever in appearance but the impact would be universal on all field attributes: Fuel/hangers, etc. If you had to hit multiple strat targets in a zone it might be too hard, unless the rebuild times for each were such that you could get all of them down and still take a handful of bases before the first attacked came back up]
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 05:46:19 PM by Charon »