Author Topic: AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7  (Read 2228 times)

Offline Yeager

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« on: June 23, 2004, 03:41:21 PM »
AIRBUS engineers have attacked the high proportion of composites used in Boeing's new 7E7 Dreamliner, branding the aircraft's development "rushed" and "ridiculous".

The 7E7 will contain double the amount of composites - a non metallic material made from two more chemicals - used in the Airbus A380, including most of the fuselage and wings. But Airbus claims Boeing has rushed through the technology before it is matured.

Colin Stuart, Airbus vice-president of marketing, said composites should be introduced with caution.

He told an engineering conference: "If you start to look at the various loads on composites (in an all-composite fuselage), it is absolutely the wrong thing to do." Current composite material is unsuitable for many areas of the fuselage claimed Alain Garcia, executive vice-president of engineering. "It's perfect for tension and fatigue, but poor for compression," he said.

Airbus stepped up the war of words with Boeing after the US company criticised weight increases in the A380. Airbus claims the 7E7 will be heavier than Boeing has admitted.

Dr Jürgen Klenner, Airbus senior vice-president of structure engineering, said today's carbon fibre is often no more than "black aluminium" - with the same attributes as traditional materials - offering few benefits for the extra cost. Carbon fibre does have weight advantages, but according to Klenner the cost of the raw material is up to 500%.

"We do not apply a material because it is trendy, we do it when we are convinced it is mature enough. There are crucial questions that have not yet been answered," he said.

There are concerns that composites present a higher fire risk.

Prof Phil Irving, civil aviation authority expert in damage tolerance at Cranfield University, said engineers should drip-feed composites into aircraft to avoid "unexpected failures". Airbus accused Boeing of tinkering with the 7E7's supposedly advanced technology during its development, saying the final product will be more conventional and heavier than originally claimed.

But Boeing denies this, pointing out that the aircraft was developed in parallel to, rather than after, the company's now-cancelled project, the Sonic Cruiser.

A Boeing spokesman said: "We've put a great amount of work into composites, drawing on the work we've already done on the 777 and a whole variety of military aircraft.

"The 7E7 is a bold move, but if you look at the efficiency and environmental advantages it's a move in the right direction." The 7E7 will contain 50% of its weight in composites, making it lighter and more fuel-efficient, Boeing claims. The A380 structure contains under 25% composites, while Airbus chose not to use the carbon fibre wing planned for its future military aircraft.

Boeing expects to announce up to 200 orders for the 7E7 this year. So far only Japan's All Nippon Airways and Air New Zealand have placed orders, compared with 129 orders to date for the A380.

Italian charter airline Eurofly has ordered one Airbus A319 Long Range aircraft and plans to acquire a second.

The aircraft will be equipped with 48 seats and will operate all-premium class services from Milan and Rome to New York.

The Milan-based airline is already an Airbus operator with five A320s and two A330s flying to European and Caribbean holiday destinations.

Meanwhile, Egyptair has taken delivery of the first of seven Airbus A330-200s on order.
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Sounds like airbus views the 7E7 as a threat to their core business.

Hmmm.....
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Offline Chairboy

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2004, 03:46:38 PM »
In other news, the Coca-Cola corporation expressed grave misgivings over Pepsi's recent product releases.
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Offline FUNKED1

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2004, 03:48:16 PM »
Airbus is the one with vertical stabilizers falling off.
Socialist weenies worried that free enterprise is going to spank their hinies.

Offline straffo

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2004, 03:48:21 PM »
Sound like Boeing recruited some marketing guys from Microsoft.

Offline Pongo

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2004, 03:57:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Airbus is the one with vertical stabilizers falling off.
Socialist weenies worried that free enterprise is going to spank their hinies.


Did Airbus pass Boeing in having the most tax dollars thown at it and I missed it in the news?

Offline Chairboy

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2004, 04:02:14 PM »
I think there might be confusion about the difference between 'subsidies' and 'government purchases' in your post, Pongo.
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2004, 04:14:04 PM »
Ya big difference, one is honest.

Offline Chairboy

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2004, 04:30:34 PM »
So by extension, no company should ever sell goods to the government because doing so will be the same as "receiving massive government subisidies to bail them out of bad decisions"?  I only ask, because that's what happened with Airbus.

BTW, the US government owns plenty of Boeing-built aircraft ranging from fighter to cargo planes.  How many Airbus planes are owned by EU governments?

Helpful guide:
1. If you give money to a company in exchange for goods, it is a purchase.

2. If you give money to a company because they have mismanaged their business and you receive nothing except assurances that the company will remain intact and that your voters won't lose their jobs at the plant, then it is a subsidy.
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Offline Pongo

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2004, 04:48:19 PM »
Just pretend that the French airforce needs a fleet of 200 "tankers" so they are paying for the developement of them.
No "capitalist' would do that..develop a "tanker" under a very lucrative SAC contract then take out the seats and undercut the rest of the world selling the airframe as an "Airliner"  Destroying much of the world aerospace industry because they cant "compete"

Save it.

Offline Chairboy

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2004, 04:57:40 PM »
Are you referring to the 707/KC-135 deal?  I'm not sure if it was a government handout or a masterful deal, but either way, that was 50 years ago.  Airbus collects welfare checks every month.

Don't get me wrong, I think they make some really nice planes, but we are talking about subsidies, aren't we?
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Offline Pongo

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2004, 05:02:57 PM »
There is no difference. The europeans just dont want fleets of bombers or tankers.
Other then that there is absolutly no difference in the Market or to the taxpayer.
Boeing would not exist in any form without huge US goverment tax money infusions.
So calling thier competition "socialist" is silly. Thier product competes on the world market. May the best one win.

Offline AKWeav

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2004, 05:09:51 PM »
Quote
The europeans just dont want fleets of bombers or tankers


They don't need them.  They know we'll come bail their tulips out again if they get attacked.

Offline Bodhi

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2004, 05:26:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
There is no difference. The europeans just dont want fleets of bombers or tankers.
Other then that there is absolutly no difference in the Market or to the taxpayer.
Boeing would not exist in any form without huge US goverment tax money infusions.
So calling thier competition "socialist" is silly. Thier product competes on the world market. May the best one win.


Pongo,

A subsidy is proposed to help keep a company afloat, usually in it's development phases.

A government purchase is a legitimate purchase made usually to the lowest bidder (in the US atleast).  Boeing sold aircraft to the US gov't, (many other gov'ts too) Airbus, received many billions in subsidies to keep them afloat.  There is a major difference.
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Offline Dago

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2004, 05:29:02 PM »
I have enough experience with Airbus aircraft to certainly believe that the Airbus people shouldn't throw stones at other manufacturers.

dago
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Offline Gh0stFT

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AIRBUS Engineers slam 7E7
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2004, 05:36:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKWeav
They don't need them.  They know we'll come bail their tulips out again if they get attacked.


WHO will attack Europa and for WHAT reason ?
...please, just ONE reason? (and please exlude the "...'until Islamic rule is back on Earth" BS thread.)
thank you.


and Airbus 380 will beat the Boeing 7E7 anyway, so whats left ? ;)
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