tha_bounce, scaling and strat...

[Wolverine]

First off lemmie prelude this to saying this:

THANK YOU HITECH!!!

-cough-

Now, few questions.  First off I was curious if there is a way to tone down the bounce induced by stick movement?  I can understand that some bounce would be there, but what's in play now ... well ... just doesn't feel natural.

Perhaps it's my stick scaling?  Which leads to my second question...

Could some people post up a screen or two of their stick scalings in AH?  Currently, with my scaling, the stick is just WAY too sensitive.  Even with scaling bigtime, i'm getting full response at just half pullback and it's causing me to overcorrect in tight dogfights.

Seeing some different configurations might help me understand it a bit better.

Next.

Is there ANY documentation on the effects of destroying stratigic targets?  I really would like to look into this, get proficiant in it and do a write up, but I need a place to start.  What's known about it so far?

Sooooo much to do, I love it!

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Wolverine [wlvrn] http://www.wlvrn.com

33rd Strike Group http://www.33rd.org

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

[This message has been edited by Wolverine (edited 10-20-1999).]

[Vermillion]

I am getting the nose bounce too Wolverine.  In my case its pretty bade.  And if its similar to the problem that caused the same issue in WB's, stick scaling won't help you out a whole lot. What HT and Pyro had to do there was put an additional stick dampener slider in the joystick setup.

I hope they get this fixed soon, it feels like I am flying on springs.
 

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), *MOL*, Men of Leisure, Goldlandia
AW's: (verm) ACCS, Aerial Crowd Control Services, Cland

[Mark Luper]

Gents,
The stick scaling utility also includes a damper slider that has been there since before beta began. I do reccomend that you use both to help aleviate your problem.
Personaly, I start my yaw adn roll axis near midpoint and up from there, but my pitch I start much lower, 25% up from the bottom. I try to make an essentially straight line with the sliders from 1st to 9th.

Hope this helps.


MarkAT

[Minotaur]

2nd try...

I have noticed the bounce, it irritates me alot.  Then again, I can't hit the broad side of a BIG building on a strafing run.  The joystick is set up so that can grunt 4.5g's and still control black out.  Rudder tuning still in progress.

Another thing I have noticed.  At high speeds the stick just goes dumb.  I suppose this happens in real planes and I expect it to happen in the Sim.   However, I have become such a good AH simmer trimmer I can still manuver quite well.

Getting ready to hit the dirt?   Use Up Trim Control, you will black out for a LOOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGGG time.  That's right a long time (LOL).  You will wake up about angels 12, with one thought in your mind "Whew, Holy Bovine!"  

Suffering from excessive compression?  I have manuvered quite well (P51) at around 500knots, using only trim.  Thinking I should swap throttle trim controls with joystick aircraft controls.  No; not really.  

Want to come out of that YO-YO real fast?  Use trim, works better than flaps.  Seems to really magnify control deflection.

I could be missing something here, let me know.

Anyone use flaps?  Are flaps really of use during ACM?  How you would you deploy them if they are?  I am primarily at this stage P51 BnZ.

I like to deploy 1st stage flaps, for some manuvers in my P51, I can't tell if it is doing me any good.  Thought I read somewhere the P51's 1st stage flaps were low drag manuvering flaps.  I'm sure someone can straighten me out without to much firepower.  

Well; I guess it is better to be a Minotaur, than a Minoseagull.  You could flap better, but be nowhere near as sexy.  

As it stands, I should change my name to Minotaurget anyway.  Hope all you guys like the drone practice I am giving you.  I want you to know that I fly bad, ON PURPOSE!  

Mino

[Vermillion]

 

Gents,
The stick scaling utility also includes a damper slider that has been there since before beta began.
<snip>
MarkAT

Mark, I just went back in and checked but unless you alpha guys are running a different FE than the rest of us, you are mistaken.

There is a deadband slider in the joystick setup, but there is not a dampener slider there.

Deadband kills the input from the first intial percentaged of stick movement in that degree of motion. This is useful if you have a joystick that tends to float,is overly sensitive, or easily goes offcenter.

Dampener changes how fast the control surfaces of the aircraft (rudders, elevators or aelirons) move from nuetral to the position indicated by the joystick, or from the actuated position to the nuetral position.

If I remember correctly from way back in WB's when Pyro explained it, the control surfaces could move from the nuetral position to the indicated position in 40 ms. So even if you move the stick slowly and carefully, it simulated moving the control surfaces very quickly, causing the bouncing we are experiencing.

I am guessing, but cannot prove, that we are seeing a similar phenomenon in AH.

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), *MOL*, Men of Leisure, Goldlandia
AW's: (verm) ACCS, Aerial Crowd Control Services, Cland

[Mark Luper]

Vermillion,
I may be using it wrong but I use the deadband slider,(you are correct, it is deadband not damper) to eliminate the effects of the stick off center. This program is very sensitve to minute movements from the stick and in essence some of those are really spikes. Most people with problems with auto flight self canceling are experiencing these "spikes".
The sliders, on the other hand, for each of the different axis, works in a way like a damper in that it reduces control for the percentage of stick movement you set it for. At least that is my understanding of it and there may be much more to it than I realize.
Sorry for giving out incorrect info.


MarkAT

[Kats]

My  jstisck has no spikes and is clean as a whistle. I too however, find the "rubber nose" effect of the FM annoying, and have heard many others complain about the same thing. Perhaps this is some of the weird things Pyro refers to in his FM that he is tweaking.

I don't want to play with the deadband and sliders becasue that will reduce my performance in roll, pitch and yaw.

[Hans]

I tend to prefer the FM that sensitive.

BUT!

My stick scaling for the pitch axis is reeeeaaaallllyyy flat and barely increases untill the end.  I figure if I am pulling that far back on my joystick...by God I mean to yank that pig that much on purpose and should get what I ask for.

I also usually trim my plane slightly nose heavy (wants to dive) just after I use autopilot to trim the plane.  This way I can hold the plane level myself and not worry about breaking out of the deadzone center of my stick.  FYI I learned this from the Blue Angels.  Those guys keep their F-18s set with a 25 pound force on the stick pulling it forward.  You have more control over the weight than a balanced stick.

Hans.

[ArcTangent]

Hans wrote:

"I figure if I am pulling that far back on my joystick...by God I mean to yank that pig that much on purpose and should get what I ask for."

LOL Hans.    I have my Pitch sliders/dampeners set up exactly like yours.  Very low thru the first 3/4 or so, then the last few graduating very high.

This allows fine & precise adjustments with small stick movements and full deflection speed when needed at the outer edges.

But the odd phenomenon I think you guys are refering to is a similar problem WB has currently.  A sort of control input wabble or bounce from the modeling of inertia.
Seems to be most noticeable when you go neutral in input quickly or quickly opposite deflection.  The plane moves according to your control input but takes a sec or 2 to settle down, sometimes causing you to speed up the settle process by applying opposite deflection, which disrupts the settle down process, and you correct again. Hence the wabble becomes a bounce, with you waging a small war with the minute control of the aircraft saying, " Alright you, settle the F*K down already..."
  (Ooops..maybe that's just me, talking to an inanimate object.)

Anyhow, Is the inertia modeled correctly or too much so?  Dunno, never flew a plane in RL.

But scaling your stick way down for the first half of movement can help bring the fine tuning flight adjustments into a less wabblesome state.

HiTech, Pyro...Is the inertia of the FM set a bit too high.  Or is it just us?
Addressed in the next update?


Arc T

 


[This message has been edited by ArcTangent (edited 10-22-1999).]

[ft]

How the real planes were in this respect probably varied. What you are seeing is the dynamical stability. Quick explanation...

A plane can have an state of equilibrium where it will be flying stable. A plane generally will be built to want to go back to this state when disturbed from it, i.e. it is statically stable. Most planes are built with some degree of static stability. Trainers, dedicated bombers and GA planes with a lot, fighters with a little.

When the plane goes back to the equilibrium, there's basically three ways in which it can do it.

Overdamped - it goes back to the equilibrium state and remains there.

Damped - It goes towards the equilibrium state but oscillates around it with decreasing amplitude before settling in.

Undamped - It will continue to oscillate around the equilibrium state indefinitely, unless something is done.

How a plane does this is known as it's dynamic stability. A plane can also be dynamically unstable but statically stable. This means that it will be stable when in the equilibrium state, but if you upset it from that state (and you're never exactly there) it will start oscillating with increasing amplitude until you're out of control unless you do something about it - which would probably end up i PIOs anywa. No good.  

I can see how finetuning the models to get rid of these underdamped oscillations might be hard... Stick damping probably has very little to do with it.

Cheers,
   /ft, hoping he caused less confusion than he introduced

[Swager]

Same here!!  Flew last nite and the controls were heavy (used to be very bouncy).  I figured they did some tweaking. I'm saying "Cool, I'll just adjust my sliders to make it more sensitive to stick movement"  I mean this baby would not roll or get that crazy rattling noise I am so used to now!

So I did (after I got blown out of the sky twice, I make very pretty fireworks).  Was OK for alittle but went right back to the bouncy-bouncy.  "So",  I said to myself, "I'll calibrate in Windows and be right back."

No Joy!  

It seems like my joystick input slowly degrades the longer I play.  I dont know maybe I'm just going crazy.  Or maybe it's the bump I got on my head (augered in pretty hard last nite).

Not to be mean,  but I am happy knowing others are having problems with this also.

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Damn Ghostrider!  This bogey is all over me!!

[Zanth]

1

[Zanth]

The bounce isn't nose bouce, it's your head moving.  Look at it again as you fly it will make sense to you.  Now whether you like you head moving or not, well that is another question.

[Vermillion]

Zanth, I know what the head movement you are speaking of is, this is a seperate issue totally.

In fact it was an issue in Warbirds for many years, up until just before HT and Pyro left, when they got it fixed.

Hopefully they can get it sorted out here.

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,