Author Topic: NEA: No School Vouchers...VOTE KERRY!!  (Read 1052 times)

Offline wklink

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NEA: No School Vouchers...VOTE KERRY!!
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2004, 10:41:47 AM »
The problem Red Tail is that public schools have been failing for many years, and the problem is not money.  Every time someone mentions poor test scores the first thing that seems to thrown out by the NEA is the need for more money.  If you look at the problem in simple money terms then according to the stats posted AT PBS (not a conservative think tank)  you would think New Jersey and New York would have the best educated kids in the world.  I will grant that some areas have poor public schools because the areas are poor to begin with (Mississippi, Oklahoma) and those areas probably should get increased federal funding.  If you look you might find it interesting that your hero, Bill Clinton's state Arkansas ranks 48th among funding for education.  

Funding is only part of the problem.  There are several.  

One is poor input by parents.  Parents drop their kids off at school and use it more as a babysitting service than an educational start.  If you look at areas with poor student performance you will find that many of these areas parental involvement is little to none.  My wife's best friend is a teacher, it seems the only time her failing students parents become aware of a problem is when the failure notice gets home.  All the money in the world won't mean crap if the parent's aren't involved at home.  

The other problem is the institutional makeup of the schools.  Unions like the NEA have bastardized themselves into something they should never be.  These groups care more about maintaining the status quo than they do improving outcomes for kids.   I am not saying they don't want kids to improve, its simply that they don't want to try anything different from the status quo to improve it.  Schools are administration heavy and advisor heavy now, something that sucks funds away from educational and extra-curricular activities.  

Lousy teachers with tenure are almost impossible to fire in some districts.  These teachers continue not teaching and are pretty much untouchable.  Sorry, have seen it first hand with my own kids.  Mrs Krabople from the Simpson's is a satiracle overdramatization but I have seen some teachers that are pretty close.  Good teachers are threatened with censure (or even firing-I guess it is ok then) if they fail too many kids.  Some teachers have literally had their grades altered by administration personnel so that the kids can make graduation or so they can get a better GPA for college.  What does that prove?  Nothing.  Grades are worthless if they mean nothing.

What bugs me is that even things like Charter schools are getting flak from the NEA.   These schools try new things, in the public realm, yet never make it due to static from the union.  Many of these new ideas are attempted so they can be implemented at the entire school level.  However the status quo is what keeps the NEA happy, not the improvment of students.  

That is why school vouchers have become the latest idea.  If the public schools weren't jacked up to start with why would the idea come about?  The rich aren't going to benefit that much from it, they can afford to send their kids to private schools anyway.   Do you think that John Kerry's kids went to public school?  Name one big name politician that sent their kids to a public school?  Who will benefit?  Why the poor will, those that can't afford a higher priced private school.

But then again, an eductated electorate may not vote the way we want.  Better off keeping them dumb, it's easier to manipulate them that way.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 10:51:44 AM by wklink »
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Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2004, 11:10:05 AM »
Red Tail,

I'm sure all of that is a great comfort to the parents of poor children stuck in substandard and dangerous inner-city schools without the financial recourse to enroll them in something better.

Why should these parents be expected to continue to support failing public schools with their tax money?

Isn't it strange that the heartless Republicans support school vouchers while the feel-your-pain Democrats are against them?  That is hardly a coincidence, considering the fact that the Dems are the beneficiaries of massive campaign contributions by the NEA.  The Democrats are for "Freedom of Choice" on almost any issue one can name...except for this one.

Besides, when did a Democrat ever worry about too much taxing and spending?

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2004, 11:24:20 AM »
You nailed it pretty good, wklink.  I would also like to add that, while vouchers may take money away from the public school, it also takes a student away.  So it also reduces the burden on the public school by reducing enrollements and class sizes.  It is fact that everywhere vouchers have been tried, they have met with success.  It gives less fortunate kids the opportunity to go to private school that they are otherwise denied by their economic status.
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Offline LePaul

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« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2004, 11:44:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
UNIONS......NOT the teachers policeman and firefighters themselves.....ITS the UNION bigwigs that give the endorcements and ask their members to vote their way!


Exactly right...I recall in 2000 when the Teamsters endorsed Gore...yet our UPS plant was firmly against him, much to the disgust of the local union reps who insisted on trying to teach us "dumb working folk" who to vote for.

Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2004, 11:59:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wklink
Better off keeping them dumb, it's easier to manipulate them that way.


Exactly, and here's my intervention to help you all become better educated about the facts regarding school vouchers.

Proponents of vouchers are asking Americans to do something contrary to the very ideals upon which this country was founded. Thomas Jefferson, one of the architects of religious freedom in America, said, "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves... is sinful and tyrannical." Yet voucher programs would do just that; they would force citizens -- Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists -- to pay for the religious indoctrination of school children at schools with narrow parochial agendas. In many areas, 90 percent of vouchers would be used in schools whose central mission is religious training. In most such schools, religion permeates the classroom, the lunchroom, even the football practice field. Channeling public money to these institutions flies in the face of the constitutional mandate of separation of church and state.

Also, under a system of vouchers, it may be difficult to prevent schools run by extremist groups like the Nation of Islam or the Ku Klux Klan from receiving public funds to subsidize their racist and anti-Semitic agendas. maybe that's what some of you want.

Finally...(only for the benefit of a short read), as an empirical matter, reports on the effectiveness of voucher programs have been mixed. reports on Cleveland's voucher program suggest that it has been less effective than proponents argue. Milwaukee's program has resulted in a huge budget shortfall, leaving the public schools scrambling for funds. While some studies suggest that vouchers are good for all parties, there is, as yet, little evidence that they ultimately improve the quality of education for those who need it most.

Maybe we should just declare the First Amendment and the separation of church and state null and void...just gimme my guns!

Offline wklink

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« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2004, 02:00:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Exactly, and here's my intervention to help you all become better educated about the facts regarding school vouchers.

Proponents of vouchers are asking Americans to do something contrary to the very ideals upon which this country was founded. Thomas Jefferson, one of the architects of religious freedom in America, said, "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves... is sinful and tyrannical." Yet voucher programs would do just that; they would force citizens -- Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists -- to pay for the religious indoctrination of school children at schools with narrow parochial agendas. In many areas, 90 percent of vouchers would be used in schools whose central mission is religious training. In most such schools, religion permeates the classroom, the lunchroom, even the football practice field. Channeling public money to these institutions flies in the face of the constitutional mandate of separation of church and state.

Also, under a system of vouchers, it may be difficult to prevent schools run by extremist groups like the Nation of Islam or the Ku Klux Klan from receiving public funds to subsidize their racist and anti-Semitic agendas. maybe that's what some of you want.

Finally...(only for the benefit of a short read), as an empirical matter, reports on the effectiveness of voucher programs have been mixed. reports on Cleveland's voucher program suggest that it has been less effective than proponents argue. Milwaukee's program has resulted in a huge budget shortfall, leaving the public schools scrambling for funds. While some studies suggest that vouchers are good for all parties, there is, as yet, little evidence that they ultimately improve the quality of education for those who need it most.

Maybe we should just declare the First Amendment and the separation of church and state null and void...just gimme my guns!



This is almost too easy.....

Before I start picking you apart on this statement I want to know a couple of things.

How many children, school age or otherwise do you have?  In addition, how much property tax have you paid last year?  Since property taxes pay for most school programs and since the children are the ones that most benefit I am interested to see what your responses are to those.   We like to pull this old 'walk a mile in my shoes' crap so lets see if you have even paid a dime in property tax.

I'm taking my 7 year old golfing.  I'll see if you have any response to this when I get back.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 02:13:14 PM by wklink »
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Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2004, 02:14:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wklink
This is almost too easy.....

Before I start picking you apart on this statement I want to know a couple of things.

How many children, school age or otherwise do you have?  In addition, how much property tax have you paid last year?  Since property taxes pay for most school programs and since the children are the ones that most benefit I am interested to see what your responses are to those.    


stinky bait...although it seems I struck a nerve...the last line of your post (that i dind't include) already suggests that an intelligent conversation with you will be impossible...but I'll humor you for a while...

I have two young boys. I own a home in Rhode Island, and a townhome in Minnesota, so break out your calculator yourself and crunch the numbers you want.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2004, 02:15:20 PM »
vouchers are the only means in place in an attempt to hold schools/teachers accountable for their performance or lack there of

the public school system is a joke as it stands today - something has to change, it hasn't worked the way it has been, vouchers are at least an attempt at change

oh and the voucher is really the parents money returned in the form of a "refund" for poor services rendered, so you can keep your 1st admen whine ..
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Offline wklink

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« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2004, 02:19:08 PM »
No stinky bait.  I just want to know what your perspective is as a property owner and as a parent before I start arguing with you.  A lot of people post opinions here, and a lot of them don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.   Since you own property, and pay taxes to support schools, plus have two kids then I have more respect for your opinions.

As I said, I am taking my son to the golf course, tee time is in less than 1/2 hour and it takes 20 minutes to get there.

Will respond when I get home.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2004, 02:22:22 PM »
red tail... nice rehash of the party line...but... the facts get in the way..

There is no problem with seperation of church and state.   Any schol that did not abide by the law would not be funded.   Several private schools have proven that they can take the rejects and worst performers of any school system and dramaticly improve their grades.... it seem so funny to me that you would say that it would be taking money away from public schools... it is like admitting that public schools can't compete even on a financial basis with real schools... they can't compete academicly or finanacialy with private schools and the students and the country suffers.

As for Jefferson... first off... a liberal quoting jefferson is indeed laughable but... Jefferson would have seen far more of parents being forced to have their children indoctrinated with things they opposse in PUBLIC schools...  Public schools are cesspools of junk science and liberal mush.   A parent should be able to choose if they want a little religion or a couple of lesbians giving demonstrations.

lazs

Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2004, 02:28:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wklink
No stinky bait.  I just want to know what your perspective is as a property owner and as a parent before I start arguing with you.  A lot of people post opinions here, and a lot of them don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.   Since you own property, and pay taxes to support schools, plus have two kids then I have more respect for your opinions.

As I said, I am taking my son to the golf course, tee time is in less than 1/2 hour and it takes 20 minutes to get there.

Will respond when I get home.


Lose a few in the drink for me

Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2004, 02:46:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
it is like admitting that public schools can't compete even on a financial basis with real schools... they can't compete academicly or finanacialy with private schools and the students and the country suffers.lazs


You are 1/2 right, which is better than most of your posts. You generalize far too much...while most public schools cannot compete financially, many i fact produce talent that rivals students who have graduated from private schools.


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

As for Jefferson... first off... a liberal quoting jefferson is indeed laughable but... Jefferson would have seen far more of parents being forced to have their children indoctrinated with things they opposse in PUBLIC schools...  Public schools are cesspools of junk science and liberal mush.   A parent should be able to choose if they want a little religion or a couple of lesbians giving demonstrations.


You are indeed liberal in your labeling of anything not intimately aligned to your worldview as liberal. Given your assessment of Public schools, did you in fact attend a cesspool, or just fail to take advantage of the educational opportunities they were laid bare before you? or, did you attend private school?

What school did you hear of lesbian teachers giving demonstrations?

OTOH, if you think there aren't lesbian nuns in the convent teaching religion to our children in the classroom, you are horribly misinformed  :lol

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2004, 06:13:11 PM »
when will all you guys wake up and realize it is not about education at all.....It's about money.  The teachers want more.....in order for them to get more the schools have to get more.  

Public schools need to be held accountable.....just like any other public office or service that is funded with govt tax money.


If a school is teaching material that I do not agree with to my children why should I not have the choice for my tax dollars to fund my childs education elsewhere.....

Again its not about the education....its about money.  People want to dragg religion and extremest groups into this but what does that have to do with anything if the kids are getting a good education at a private school and a poor one at a public.  Again...where is the accountablility?

My daughter starts kintergarden this year and I would love to send her to a christian school.  I just cant afford it.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2004, 07:52:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
My daughter starts kintergarden this year and I would love to send her to a christian school.  I just cant afford it.


and if you could you still may not get in ...

there was a waiting list everytime I inquired about Catholic grade school for my boys .. after 12 years of public school for both of them, I can see why ...

since they are out of "public" school, i am all for not having any of my tax $$ wasted in the "system" as it is today
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Offline wklink

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« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2004, 08:12:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Lose a few in the drink for me


You know, I started to write something to counter your arguments and then re-read something you wrote:

Also, under a system of vouchers, it may be difficult to prevent schools run by extremist groups like the Nation of Islam or the Ku Klux Klan from receiving public funds to subsidize their racist and anti-Semitic agendas. maybe that's what some of you want.

I find this highly insulting and I am suprised I missed this the first time.  It is a typical attack on anyone that may have something remotely conservative in their thought pattern.  You threw a snit when someone labeled you a liberal but you threw out the ol Neo Nazi crap when someone disagree with you.

It is very easy to prevent organizations like this from receiving federal money.  Its call oversight.  They do it for hospitals, for nursing homes, heck its done everywhere, what makes you think that they won't be monitoring where these vouchers go.  In fact, most advocates say right off the bat that these vouchers will only go to schools that pass certain minimum requirements to take students-ie they must have licensed teachers, teach to a curriculim that meets state standards for licensure, etc. etc.  These wacked out groups wouldn't be able to meet these standards, nor would they want to.  

As for the church and state stuff.  Using that logic all tax exempt status should be pulled from them.  Tax money now goes to help support soup kitchens and other homeless activities started or run by charities.  Some main stream groups, from the Y to the Boy and Girl scouts already meet on school property.  I guess they should throw them out too.  It would be a good idea to get rid of that subversive organization called the Boy Scouts huh?  

We have been funding education at private schools for a long time.  School busses run from private schools to take kids home.  Some of that is reimbursed by the school I am sure but I am willing to bet that some of it is paid for by the taxpayer.  Lets stop that too.  Lets stop student loans to kids that go to Notre Dame or Georgetown.  

You know, I was really looking forward to having a friendly debate with you over this until I realized you called me a Neo-Nazi because I wanted kids to get the best education possible.  Maybe I should respond with some stupid insult in kind but I don't think I will stoop to your level.
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