Author Topic: How do I stop from blacking out?  (Read 1443 times)

Offline RTStuka

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 869
How do I stop from blacking out?
« on: July 07, 2004, 09:33:23 PM »
I know slowing up my speed helps but I was wondering if anyone has any other tips? I ask because when I have someone on my 6 and try to make a hard turn the enemy seems to still be able to fire on me while engaged in the the turn. Well when I am on someones 6 and make a sharp turn to stay with them I black out, and I am unable to make accuarte shots, any suggetions?

Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10173
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2004, 10:14:12 PM »
Learn to ride the tunnel ( where the black out begins to shrink the window to where it is a small hole you can barely see thru ) it will keep you from being blacked out completely and  keep your fatigue score down. If you black out completely and often you are prolonging your recovery.

Also note at what speeds you are at in each aircraft you fly at the black out moment ( speed/g's pulling ) and practice getting a feel for this. It is called learning to ride the edge of the Envelope ( high speed edge )

One should learn the spectrum of the flight envelope in each plane he flys from High speed ( edge of black out ) to stall speed ( edge of stall )  makes for a more agressive fiter pile-it....just my humbled opinion YMMV ;)
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline TweetyBird

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1775
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2004, 10:29:07 PM »
Just curious - do red outs shave any off the blackout score, or am I just inducing a stroke?

Offline Soda

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1543
      • http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2004, 11:59:34 AM »
I think you just lack an understanding of turn-dynamics.  Consider this, all AH pilots black out at the same 6G's, they all also experience tunnel vision at 5G's+.  So, if you are blacked out and the other guy isn't then you are turning "harder" than he is.  Each aircraft in AH can pull 6G's, it just depends on the speed they require to do so in order to generate the lift required.  Some aircraft that are lighter, or generate lift better, can pull 6G's at lower speeds than others.  Generally though, at 250mph+, every fighter can pull 6G's, at least for a brief time.

So, how does the other person stay with you and you can't with them, well, that has to do with pursuit angles.  There are 3 basic pursuits available, a lead, a pure, and a lag.  If you think about this in a race-car/corner concept, the lead is going for the inside lane, the pure is following, and the lag is the high-line.  You sound like you pull lead pursuit but the impact of that is that you have to turn harder to maintain that angle, thus you are pulling more G's and burning more energy generating lift.  That's why you black out first and never get your guns to bear.  Add to that a situation where the attacker generally has more speed and he has more potential to generate lift and is more likely to blackout (over-generate).  A pure pursuit is where you follow the guy, you pull no more/less than he does, thus you both would be blackout out at the same time.  Of course, this doesn't allow you a shot because you aren't aiming "infront" of the enemy... that said, you can use this to transition later to the lead pursuit so you can take your shot.  Lots of people use this as a "settling" phase, they let the enemy struggle around infront while they settle in and wait.  Once they see their opportunity, they pull Lead Pursuit for just the amount of time they need to take their shot.  A Lag Pursuit is even less often understood, this is the "high-line" where you pull a larger radius but still retain a high turn-rate.  This is very useful for controlling closure rates so you don't "pass" the enemy accidentally.  You can carry higher speeds in a lag, thus retaining more energy, and then when you are ready you pull Lead Pursuit and take your shot.

I would say, by your description, that you attempt to pull Lead too much and thus black yourself out going for a quick kill at a difficult angle/closure rate.  Good pilots will exploit this in their defense knowing you "can't"  make that shot (nobody could, everyone would black out just like you do).  The people you encounter on the other side of the coin, who can follow you, likely are using an less aggressive turn (pure or lag) and wait for you to slow a bit, then then pull lead angle and shoot you.  they use some understanding of pursuit angles and patiences to let you squirm and play out your initial defense, then they jump on you.

A side note, Pursuit type also impacts closure rates so is very useful for controlling how quickly you are catching an enemy in a turn.  If you Lead Pursuit, you are cutting the corner (shorter path) and thus your closure rate increases.  Pure Pursuit would maintain your closure rate (based on speed differential) and a Lag Pursuit would actually slow your closure (maybe even allowing the distance to increase because your flight path is longer than the guy you are chasing).

If you want a demo, drop me a note and I can meet you in the Training Arena and show you.  It's a very important concept but once you see it in action it usually all makes sense.  Feel free to email me any questions if you want.

soda@hitechcreations.com

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2004, 07:30:49 AM »
Soda,
Seems like AH is too high in it's threshold.  I posted some NATO and USAF test's under a pilot physiology thread including quite a bit of medical data explaining many of the medical problems that occur before, during, and after G-loc.

Off hand I want to say AH's model is 1/2 to a full G too high for the "average" pilot.  Of course, maybe our pilots are not average?!  In other words we should be blacking out earlier than we do.  

Even before World War II A/C performance had reached the point the biggest limitation was the pilot.  In fact there one theory of Air Combat that emerged prior to World War II that claimed that fighters could no longer dogfight.  Their pilots would not be able to withstand the G forces.  The age of Dogfighting was over.  Just like the USAF said prior to Vietnam.  

Crumpp

Offline TalonX

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1231
Blackouts
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2004, 08:05:07 AM »
I have tourniquets on both thighs and my neck.

I should be good for 8 g's, but AHII doesn't seem to recognize this.
-TalonX

Forgotten, but back in the game.  :)

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2004, 08:10:58 AM »
With a G suit you are correct Talon.  However Air Force physiologist put the G threshold much lower without one.

Crumpp

Offline AKFokerFoder+

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2004, 04:01:47 PM »
Stuka:

My advise would be to read Soda's reply like it came from the burning bush. :)

When I am on the tail of a bogey, and he starts to turn to avoid my guns solution, I will often start a yo-yo.  This keeps me above a better turning bogey, keeps me in a higher energy state, and gives me the option to complete the yo-yo for a guns solution, or to break off my attack get higher where I can re-engage or dis-engage.

I am not a turn-fighter, as I beleive that saddling up on a bogey's six is way too often a way to get in a low energy state without a guns solution.  Then the bogey's buddy blows you off his six, or one of you team mates blows the bogey off your 12.  Either way it is a lot of risk with small possibility of a kill.

Of course if I am alone (does not happen often in AH) out in the middle of now where with a bogey, I will turn with him if my plane is a better turner or it looks like I am against a bunny pilot :)

Offline RTStuka

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 869
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2004, 08:28:34 PM »
AKFokerFoder,
    Thanks for the suggestion, one question though how do you do a Yo-Yo, im clueless as to what it is.
     I have a few tequniques I use when I am on someones 6 but I posted this thread hoping to learn a few more. Thanks again.

Offline fuzeman

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8971
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2004, 08:46:42 PM »
http://www.netaces.org/genacm/maneuvers.html#title

At the bottom you will find basic descriptions of the high and low Yo-yo.
Its been mentioned before that Robert L. Shaw's 'Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering' is well worth the price.
Our library had a copy so you might find on there to check out before you buy your own.
Far too many, if not most, people on this Board post just to say something opposed to posting when they have something to say.

"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG54

Offline RTStuka

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 869
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2004, 08:48:15 PM »
Thanks alot fuze, hey i was wondering if I could hook up with you in the training arena sometime.

Offline fuzeman

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8971
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2004, 09:16:27 PM »
If the bait is right and tasty, yep, you can hook me up :)
E-mail me at fuzeman@hitechcreations.com and we can arrange a time. Taking care of uncle at Ma's house and no job I'm pretty flexable timewise.
Far too many, if not most, people on this Board post just to say something opposed to posting when they have something to say.

"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG54

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
How do I stop from blacking out?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2004, 10:10:29 PM »
Funny how these questions develop in the same order.  Posted a few articles awhile back in the same vein.  
Attack/Pursuit Modes
Yo-Yo's (RE: Attack/Pursuit Modes)
Those subjects however have been well covered in replies aready. :)