Author Topic: About synchronized guns..  (Read 821 times)

Offline Kweassa

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About synchronized guns..
« on: July 12, 2004, 08:12:27 AM »
What happens if the RPM of the prop changes??

 Does the ROF change along with the prop RPM??

Offline Modas

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About synchronized guns..
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2004, 09:05:23 AM »
I wouldn't think so...

IIRC, the interupter on guns firing thru the nose simply operated on a cam system.  When the prop was in the line of fire, the gun would stop firing until the prob was clear

A slower RPM would give you a longer stream of shots before being interupted by the cams as the prop is turning slower.  The rate of fire of the guns wouldn't change.

Course, I could be smoking dope here... :D

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2004, 09:06:38 AM »
I guess it would do since it's mechanically synchronized?  Is the rearming mechanism mechanically connected to the synchronizer? (or is is pneumatic?).  Would a governor be fitted to the gun as well, so it couldn't exceed a certain ROF?
NEXX

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2004, 09:13:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Modas
I wouldn't think so...

IIRC, the interupter on guns firing thru the nose simply operated on a cam system.  When the prop was in the line of fire, the gun would stop firing until the prob was clear

A slower RPM would give you a longer stream of shots before being interupted by the cams as the prop is turning slower.  The rate of fire of the guns wouldn't change.

Course, I could be smoking dope here... :D


Ah, so it's directly proportional then, makes sense!  High RPM = less rounds between prop blade but oweing to high RPM would have good steady ROF.  Low RPM = more rounds between prop blade but oweing to more regular obstruction by prop blade would mean equal ROF (to high RPM) but more erratic/less steady (i.e. not continuous fire but more like bursts).

Jeez, that sounded a load of gobbledegook, I'm sure I could have written that easier!

Did I interpret that correctly? ;)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2004, 09:20:35 AM by Replicant »
NEXX

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2004, 11:01:40 AM »
Yup.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Tony Williams

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About synchronized guns..
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2004, 02:05:37 AM »
Not quite.

In fact, only a few early WW1 attempts at synchronisation worked as interrupters (although the system was often known as 'interrupter gear' for some time thereafter).

The issue of synchronisation and its effect is dealt with in detail in 'Flying Guns – World War 1: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1914-32' by Emmanuel Gustin and myself, but to summarise:

Synchronised MGs were in fact semi-automatic; they were fired not by the pilot but by the synchroniser gear (SG) - pushing the firing button just sent a message to the SG to 'fire when ready'. The SG would then fire the gun each time a propeller blade was out of the way. In fact, guns couldn't fire fast enough to keep up with the propeller. A typical prop might spin at (say) 1,200 rpm, which means that if it has three blades there are 3,600 opportunities per minute to fire one shot in each gap between blades. So in reality guns only fired one shot - or less - for every rotation of the prop.

Fixed props as used in some early WW2 planes meant that prop revs varied, so this affected the guns' RoF. Finnish pilots complained that on some of their aircraft (e.g. Fiat G.50 fighters) the guns' RoF slowed right down at some engine revs. This extract from 'FG: WW1' explains why:

"The effect of synchronisation on the rate of fire can best be explained by describing a simple system like that introduced by Fokker, in which one firing signal was sent to the gun for each rotation of the propeller. If the gun was capable of firing at 500 rounds per minute, then for propeller speeds of up to 500 revolutions per minute the RoF would be the same as the propeller rpm. However, as soon as the propeller exceeded 500 rpm, the gun mechanism could no longer keep up and could then only fire on every other rotation, so the RoF would drop to 250 rpm. It would then accelerate again with increasing propeller speed but at half the rate, so when the propeller was spinning at 1,000 rpm, the gun would be back to firing at 500 rpm again. Once more, propeller revs faster than this would cause the RoF to drop, but this time only to two-thirds of the full RoF, as it would fire on every third rotation, so it would be achieving 330 rpm. As the propeller continued to accelerate to 1,500 rpm, the gun would be back up to 500 rpm again, and so on. Any quoted figure for synchronised rates of fire could therefore only be an average."

The introduction of variable-pitch props in WW2 largely solved this problem, in that the prop speed was kept constant. Even so, the loss of RoF with synch guns depended on the system and on the gun. One of the worst was the Browning which in US and Japanese installations lost as much as 40% of its RoF. The best was the German electrical synch system which kept the losses down to about 10%.

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Offline JimBear

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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2004, 08:11:01 PM »
You are a treasure on this subject Mr. Williams. Thankyou!

Offline M.C.202

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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2004, 08:30:22 PM »
"One of the worst was the Browning which in US and Japanese installations lost as much as 40% of its RoF.
Tony Williams"

So this would help to explain the reported efectiveness of the P-38's .50's as well as the centered mounting?

Offline Tony Williams

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About synchronized guns..
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2004, 01:28:29 AM »
Not many US planes used synchronised guns in WW2. P-36, early P-40, A-36, P-39, P-63, early Buffalo, IIRC. Apart from the P-39 and P-63 they soon switched to outer wing guns for single-engined fighters, and neither these nor the P-38's nose-mounted guns needed synchronising.

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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2004, 04:49:00 AM »
Wow.. thanks for the wonderful info! This is definately not as simple as I thought it would be.

 So, if we assume a typical mid/late war Bf109:

* MG131 synchronized at 800 rounds per minute ROF
* Prop at 2700 RPM

 ...

 Then the cowl mounted machine guns would fire every 3~4 spins of the prop..

 If the pilot manually lowered his RPM to 1600 RPM, would the electric priming automatically adjust itself so the gun fires every 2 spins of the prop, so it maintains the rate of fire?

 Or, would the ROF drop to about 450 rounds per minute??

 I'm guessing its the former..?

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2004, 05:47:17 AM »
Kweassa, keep in mind that the 2700 RPM value you refer is that for the engine itself. The propellor runs at much lower rotations, usually about 40% of the engine`s revolutions, in order to prevent the propellor tip to reach or exceed the Mach number - usually it run very close to it, tough, at about 0.95-98 Mach.

In case of the of the DB 605A, the reduction gear to the prop was 1 : 1.685, in other words, at maximum RPM of 2800 U/min, the propellor would do 1661 revs/min.

I wonder what this specific parameter would mean in the end for the 109/190`s HMG`s ROF. Sadly I did not see anything definiative like a WW2 German report on that, though I guess the fact that we have two guns in place, slightly apart from each other, complicates things a bit more. But I bet the main thing about sync was precise timing and functioning of the guns themselves.

Offline Schutt

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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2004, 06:22:25 AM »
This feature sounds good.

That would mean the gun shoots every 2nd turn when the prop does 1600rpm.

On the other hand, if the prop indeed does 1661 rpm , the gun only fires at 800 and only gets permission to fire at a certain spot of the prop the fire rate would be reduced since the gun is a tad to slow... so decreasing prop revs to 1600 gives max rate of fire?

According to my calculator max rate of fire at an engine rpm of 2696.

I guess in ah2 the gun rate of fire is set and doesnt change with revs.

Any idea for tests? see how fast 1000 rounds of ammo is used up at difrent prop speeds ?

Offline Charge

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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2004, 06:27:46 AM »
AND high revs like that for 109 were possible because of relatively small prop radius. For larger radius props the rpm has to be smaller to prevent tip overspeed.

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Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2004, 01:45:18 AM »
I should add that I think that the German synchroniser provided a fire opportunity between each pair of blades, i.e. three per prop rotation. So if the gun missed one fire opportunity, it only had to wait for one-third of a prop revolution to get the next.

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Offline Tilt

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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2004, 05:20:43 AM »
very interesting..........

Lavochkins used Shvaks (pneumatically armed) which had a  rof (IIRC) of 800 thru a prop which rotated at (nominally) 2400/1.6=1500 hence the rof would not be above 750?

When firing paired cowl guns thru a prop would both fire thru the same pair of prop blades?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2004, 05:32:16 AM by Tilt »
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