Author Topic: A couple questions for the sliderule expert's?  (Read 200 times)

Offline humble

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A couple questions for the sliderule expert's?
« on: October 10, 2000, 07:06:00 PM »
More than one persons response to my post on the FM suggested I compile various info on my "beef's". I'm not qualified from an engineering bent to realistically due that...however...I have some observations, which lead to questions.

1) "rudder hard over" a chilling warning to anyone who flies a 737 for a living. A stable plane reduced to tumbling aluminum within seconds. I found rudder input in AH can be taken to extremes without affecting stability. Infact uncoordinated rudder input seems more stable. I realize that a combat aircraft differs dramatically from a jetliner, also skidding a plane (both offense and defense) is an integral part of acm. Is the AH FM reasonably accurate in this aspect?

2) I took the "outside track" (lag pursuit) overtook drones (closing at 275 or so) till they 350-300 in front left view. Full rudder with cross control rotates nose so I have a 150-200 45 degree raking shot. Observed almost no counter swing thru 30 deg or more of rotation. Wouldn't something need to give or can plane rotate on lift from control surfaces only.

3) Almost no drag on above mentioned manv. seemed cabable of maintaining speed for prolonged periods.

4) plane appeared controllable to stall speed and appeared to recover easily without
traditional stick inputs.

5) on overshoot rev of input + throttlechop resulted in multiple T's and more than one front aspect canopy shot. Almost feels like plane is rotating without use of lift surfaces, just control surfaces.


Can you really fly a plane like this?


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Offline humble

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A couple questions for the sliderule expert's?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2000, 09:13:00 PM »
A quick follow up on original post, I flew 2 planes the 202 and 1d. After posting I went back and flew the 190 pony and tiffie. The 190 responds immediately to rudder input, in addition to lateral motion there is an immediate inclination to "knuckle under". Cross control is much more difficult and requires constant adjustment. The pony is somewhat similiar to the 1d but won't maintain the "flat turn" rate. The tiffie showed the least rotation but also showed no tendancy for the nose to tuck under in response to extreme rudder input.

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Offline wells

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A couple questions for the sliderule expert's?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2000, 09:24:00 PM »
I'll take a stab at it

 
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1) "rudder hard over" a chilling warning to anyone who flies a 737 for a living. A stable plane reduced to tumbling aluminum within seconds. I found rudder input in AH can be taken to extremes without affecting stability. Infact uncoordinated rudder input seems more stable. I realize that a combat aircraft differs dramatically from a jetliner, also skidding a plane (both offense and defense) is an integral part of acm. Is the AH FM reasonably accurate in this aspect?

A 737 has swept wings which provide stability enough that the fin area can be reduced a bit.  However, swept wings also have a nasty tip stall when you have any yaw on.  There's also a ton of yaw inertia, once it gets going, it's hard to stop!  Airliners also have a yaw damper, which provides most of an airliners yaw stability.  It's usually turned on just after takeoff.

 
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2) I took the "outside track" (lag pursuit) overtook drones (closing at 275 or so) till they 350-300 in front left view. Full rudder with cross control rotates nose so I have a 150-200 45 degree raking shot. Observed almost no counter swing thru 30 deg or more of rotation. Wouldn't something need to give or can plane rotate on lift from control surfaces only.
 
It's the lift from the fuselage that causes the yaw rate.  The plane isn't continuing to skid.  It skids maybe 15-20 degrees, then stabilizes.  Any further rotation is just turning, wings level.
 
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3) Almost no drag on above mentioned manv. seemed cabable of maintaining speed for prolonged periods.

It depends what that speed is.  See if you can break 300 in level flight with full rudder deflection on.  How come when you bank and crank at 150 mph, you don't slow down any more?  
 
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4) plane appeared controllable to stall speed and appeared to recover easily without traditional stick inputs.
Dihedral effect.  The 'forward' wing is at a higher angle of attack than the 'backward' wing.  It should stall first when you approach the stall from a steady state.  If you suddenly apply yaw at near the stall, you may get the opposite effect, because then the yaw rate creates differential lift and can cause the backwards moving wing to stall first.
 
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5) on overshoot rev of input + throttlechop resulted in multiple T's and more than one front aspect canopy shot. Almost feels like plane is rotating without use of lift surfaces, just control surfaces.

I can't quite visualize what you're getting at with this one.

[This message has been edited by wells (edited 10-10-2000).]

Offline humble

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A couple questions for the sliderule expert's?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2000, 10:07:00 PM »
Thanks,

On the last I'm trying to describe a "flat" rev using rudder as perdominate control input. Kind of a rudder only (almost) scissors.

On point 2, can a plane continue to turn wings level, I thought some "tilt" required.

On point 3, I was suprised that plane could maintain speed at full rudder deflection, in 1.03 and back that was like deploying parachute...now will maintain 200+ forever it seems. Which modeling closest to correct?

Thanx again, you cleared 1 and 4 up for me very nicely.

As a last request could you explain a bit why the hog has such an incredible "rotational" ability compared to any others I've played with (so far)?



[This message has been edited by humble (edited 10-10-2000).]

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Offline wells

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A couple questions for the sliderule expert's?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2000, 11:09:00 PM »
 
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On point 2, can a plane continue to turn wings level, I thought some "tilt" required.

Yes, typical flat-turn (wings level) rates were about 110-120 deg/min at 180 mph or so.  I've only seen 3 such tests, for 109e, Ju-88 and He-111 and all were about the same!

 
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On point 3, I was suprised that plane could maintain speed at full rudder deflection, in 1.03 and back that was like deploying parachute...now will maintain 200+ forever it seems. Which modeling closest to correct?

It is more correct now.  Picture looking at the plane from 2 views (side and top).  Which view would you think made more drag?  You should be thinking the top view..hehe, because of the wings.  Now, see what the sustained turning speed of the plane is?  Probably around 175 mph, right?  So the sustained turning speed with wing's level in yaw will be faster than that because the wings aren't exposed as much to the airflow.

The thrust and speed of the propwash over the tail will affect how much the plane can yaw.  You might be able to get 30 degrees at lower speeds and full power, with only 15 degrees at high speed.  This is because the propwash velocity (thrust) is higher at lower forward speeds.  The F4u has ALOT of power!

Offline humble

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A couple questions for the sliderule expert's?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2000, 12:05:00 AM »
Thanx again wells, one last question and I'll put this one to bed for a bit. The hog has tremendous torque, I'd expect it to have proplems equal or greater than 190 with respect to droping nose under full rudder deflection. The 109 which was rudder king for all previous FM's displays nowhere near rudder authority of hog. Any Ideas there.

Thanx for the help with this, Intuitively I don't like/agree with what I'm seeing...but then I'm not an engineer  

PS...why do bumblebees fly  

[This message has been edited by humble (edited 10-11-2000).]

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline juzz

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A couple questions for the sliderule expert's?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2000, 12:38:00 AM »
Why it's due to rapidly expanding gases escaping from their tiny little insect rear ends of course! Why do you think they make that "humming" noise?