Author Topic: take a look...  (Read 1567 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2004, 10:06:46 PM »
He's attacking civilian targets so people will become scared and allow the government to lead them around by the collar, and at the same time allow us to destroy ourselves.

Explain plz.

Offline hawker238

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« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2004, 10:11:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
I love how that person solicits more photos.... just send in any ole photo, and he will guarantee it is because of anglo-american aggression.  What a fraud... he is lucky to have the freedom to post bullchit like that.  My bet is the majority of those photos are caused by insurgent actions, although I will agree that the coalition is surely repsonsible for some unintended deaths as well.


Are they not still a result of Anglo-American troops being there?

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2004, 10:25:19 PM »
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Are they not still a result of Anglo-American troops being there?


Why yes they are.....

Just like the 9/11 is Bush's fault.

:rolleyes:

Crumpp

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2004, 10:27:40 PM »
In this country, I think its different than many others. You can't expect the government to go, "Whoops, we took away all of your rights." and everyone to sit around on their hands murmering "Damn, I hope I don't say anything stupid and get sent to the gulag." There would be repurcussions not seen since our Civil War, more than likely right on that scale. Anyway, thats just an explanation for why I don't think 9/11/2001 could have had stripping the populace's civil liberties away.

However, we have been allowed to see that there are indeed a large amount of the population willing to give up civil liberties in the name of fighting terrorism. A big mistake, IMO, because this "war" will go on for hundreds of years. Security in the name of freedom as it were.

But, I don't think that was in Al Qaeda's primary or secondary objectives.

It certainly would appear to me, that they (A.Q.) wish to polarize this country's population. Form two distinct factions that vehemently hate each other. With all of the liberal and conservative labelling and **** flinging, I'd say they were fairly successful. Those who hate or despise all middle easterners, and those who want to only fight terrorists - regardless of their skin color or religious preference.

Another goal I percieve is theirs, which sort of follows along the lines of polarizing the country, is to give credence to the leadership's goals - whatever they may be - without any second guessing. Allowing them to enforce martial law, or worse - invade any country they saw fit. We see it on this board all the time. Anyone who criticizes the current administration is labelled as a (and this sort of proves that this country is polarized and scared) Bush hater, or Bush is hitler recitation. It scares me when criticism of the leader is met with such blind loyalty, would we really have seen this prior to 9/11/2001 - I haven't ever witnessed anything like that here in the US. Scary to say the least.

Simply put, I believe their goals were to scare us into choosing sides. Then having these two sides live in fear while we attack each other, various other nations who use to be allies, and nations which we percieve as direct threats that may or may not be and also may or may not even have real terroristic ties.

I see no way they could beat us by just blowing up building after building, not a snowballs chance in hell. What they needed to do was inflict fear (by definition, what terrorism is) and allow us to use that fear on each other in a self destructive manner.

Maybe I'm wrong, but they did accomplish a major victory here in the US. We have changed dramatically after 9/11/2001, now we are all under surveillance and all a potential enemy.
-SW

Offline Nash

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« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2004, 10:29:10 PM »
It's funny, the inherent irony in posts that purport to be defiant of terrorism's goal, expressed in a manner veritably dripping with fear, while showing anger with those that don't share it.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2004, 10:38:22 PM »
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It certainly would appear to me, that they (A.Q.) wish to polarize this country's population. Form two distinct factions that vehemently hate each other. With all of the liberal and conservative labelling and **** flinging, I'd say they were fairly successful. Those who hate or despise all middle easterners, and those who want to only fight terrorists - regardless of their skin color or religious preference.


Grow a thicker skin, It's an election year.  While your halucinating please point out where I state I hated all Muslims or Middle Eastern people??  Having spent the majority of my time since 9/11 in the Middle East I can tell you for a fact that 99 percent of the folks over there are good people who just want to live their lives in peace.

Quote
Simply put, I believe their goals were to scare us into choosing sides. Then having these two sides live in fear while we attack each other, various other nations who use to be allies, and nations which we percieve as direct threats that may or may not be and also may or may not even have real terroristic ties


9/11 was a message to stay out of Middle Eastern affairs allowing AQ to operate freely.  OBL saw what happenend in every other Terrorist attack on US soil, NOTHING, and figured we would pull out completely.  Just like we did in Somalia.

Crumpp

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2004, 10:45:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Grow a thicker skin, It's an election year.  While your halucinating please point out where I state I hated all Muslims or Middle Eastern people??  Having spent the majority of my time since 9/11 in the Middle East I can tell you for a fact that 99 percent of the folks over there are good people who just want to live their lives in peace.


A) The liberal/conservative BS has been going on since the end of 2001.

B) My skin is thick enough. My feelings are not hurt. BTW - liberal and conservative is not a party, its a sub-category. I said nothing about republican or democrat, so you get minus ten points for stating its an election year. There are liberal republicans and conservative democrats, you did know that - right?

C) While you're hallucinating, take note I did not say any one person said anything about Muslims or Middle Eastern people. As a matter of fact, I made it quite clear the statement was about all Americans.


 

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
OBL saw what happenend in every other Terrorist attack on US soil, NOTHING, and figured we would pull out completely.


That sentence I really can't make sense out of.
-SW

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2004, 11:03:37 PM »
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"*******s", "Sand ******s", etc. Use of those terms is fear to the bone. If you can't seperate normal muslims from the extremists in regards of who to fight, you ARE scared and Al Qaeda has you by the testicles.


I guess you were just ranting in General then?





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That sentence I really can't make sense out of.


Then look up AQ attacks:

USS Cole
First WTC bombing
Somalia
US embassy, Kenya
US embassy, Tanzania
And see what the US response has been.  A whole lot of hot air without a whole lot of action.  Guess you don't know.

From the provided link

 
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In 1996 Sudan made repeated overtures to the United States to extradite Osama bin Laden, arrest him, monitor him, and/or provide intelligence on the activities of him and his associates, but the Clinton administration never accepted their offers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

Percieved weakness in America caused Bin Lauden to believe he could attack us and we would do nothing.  After all, he had done it before.

Crumpp

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2004, 11:10:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
I guess you were just ranting in General then?


That reply was to Grunherz, and it was about America in general. It was no rant, it is fact based on observations.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
And see what the US response has been.  A whole lot of hot air without a whole lot of action.  Guess you don't know.

Percieved weakness in America caused Bin Lauden to believe he could attack us and we would do nothing.  After all, he had done it before.


That is what confused me. You said we did nothing in response to prior Al Qaeda attacks. This I knew, and this is where your point failed to make sense. If we did nothing, didn't alter our course, just exactly where did Bin Laden get the idea we'd pull out if he hit our homeland? From Somalia? Are you stretch armstrong, because there is no way either of those have anything in common.
-SW

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2004, 11:20:15 PM »
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If we did nothing, didn't alter our course, just exactly where did Bin Laden get the idea we'd pull out if he hit our homeland? From Somalia? Are you stretch armstrong, because there is no way either of those have anything in common.


Look at the number of attacks and numbers of Americans he killed BEFORE 9/11.  We had 8 years of running from any personal violence committed against Americans.  Lots of my friends were in Somalia.  We all said the same thing when we pulled out so fast after the world saw American soldiers bodies being drug through the street.  The world perception was "US is weak and will not stand to take casualties".  The public does not have the stomach for it.

Read the link.  Educate yourself on the War on Terrorism and the current laws.  They do not impead your freedoms nor do are curtailing civil liberties.

Crumpp

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2004, 11:25:48 PM »
Read the link. Educate yourself on the War on Terrorism and the current laws. They do not impead your freedoms nor do are curtailing civil liberties.

I never really stated that, but I believe there are several loop holes that were introduced with the Patriot Act. I would list them, but that is a topic for a different thread.

My original point, which we have substantially deviated from, was that Iraq was very low on a list of far higher priorities in the middle east with regards to threat and striking abilities.

Maybe you're right, and all Bin Laden wants is to get the US out of the middle east. To me, though, it seems more along the lines of Bin Laden wants us to fight ourselves and destroy ourselves. I'm not entirely sure what Bin Laden's stance is in Israel, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were also part of the plan.
-SW

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2004, 11:51:20 PM »
Check out this article.

However, the article is written by a business journalist with a decent reputation.  What is more important is that his essay is about 80 percent on track with what is going on. Keep in mind though:  

1.  These Muslim extremist organizations do not have a unified chain of command BUT have a common goal.

2.  They are taking their General direction from One source.  This is evident by tracking AQ's web activity.  Instructions are put out and several months later ALL of these extremist organizations are adopting the same tactics as per those instructions.  This does not mean though they have the neccessary military skills to carry them out or that the operations are especially sophisticated.

3.  I don't agree with the Personal attack on Democrats.  The point is we need a leader who will act, not consult popularity poles for his decisions.  The United States does have some tough times ahead.  We need a Leader who will make decisions that are best for the country.  Ones that may not be neccessarily the best for him personally.  I am not a Democrat or a Republican.  I do believe that Kerry has shown himself to be a poll consulter and not a leader.

http://braden.buzzword.com/2004/05/02

Crumpp

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2004, 01:21:44 AM »

Offline MrCoffee

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« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2004, 02:26:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Udie
mrcofee,

 I wonder how many of those civilians in those pictures were killed/wounded by the fedayeen?  or by the terrorist?  or used as human shields by the fedayeen?


No one can answer that. Civilian loss is a part of all wars. Dont really think about it much until I ran into this while net surfing.

Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
I love how that person solicits more photos.... just send in any ole photo, and he will guarantee it is because of anglo-american aggression.  What a fraud... he is lucky to have the freedom to post bullchit like that.  My bet is the majority of those photos are caused by insurgent actions, although I will agree that the coalition is surely repsonsible for some unintended deaths as well.


Bodhi, its important for these things to be published. I can not guess which victim was cause by whom however the overall thing here is that modern warfare always produces these uneccesary casualties. I agree in your viewpoint that the US goes out of its way to avoid civilian casualties when possible where as the terrorists use that as a means to their own ends. Still, these people are casualties of a war. Thats just the realities of it.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2004, 04:43:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
very well said storch
 why does all of ours always have to fight and die for these jerks,do you think someday along with fighting for freedom we can take care of these sorry excuses for humans beings too.


Wow. Who is it you and yours are dieing for that you want to take care of exactly?