Author Topic: Bf 109 G range and endurance  (Read 12910 times)

Offline GScholz

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2004, 09:44:32 AM »
That record was broken in 1939 by the Me209-V1, a dedicated record-breaking plane. Its record of 469.22 mph would stand for 30 years. It was broken in 1969 by a highly modified F8F Bearcat.
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Offline Nashwan

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2004, 09:58:56 AM »
Quote
In 1937 both a Messerchmitt 109 B (1660 HP) and a Spitfire I (2160 HP), both well trimmed and enhanced for record breaking, tried to win the world's speed record from Howar Hughes' H-1 record plane.

The Messerchmitt won it - even when it had 500 less HP. Quite telling about the excellent aerodynamics of the Messerchmitt fighter.


You've got the facts a bit mixed up. The 109B set a record in 1937, but no Spitfire was competing, let alone one with 2000 hp.

In the summer of 1937, the RAF decided to go for the record, and placed a contract with Supermarine.

Later in the year, the 109 raised the record to just under 380 mph. The RAF team were confident of getting close to 400 mph, and continued work.

In 1939 they abandoned the attempt, before actually making it, because of the ME 209, which was a dedicated racer, rather than a modified fighter.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2004, 10:12:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
That record was broken in 1939 by the Me209-V1, a dedicated record-breaking plane. Its record of 469.22 mph would stand for 30 years. It was broken in 1969 by a highly modified F8F Bearcat.


Considering that the P-51H, in military trim, did almost 490mph, the Spiteful did ~480mph..... One should not put to much stock in the 30 years it took to officially beat the Me209's speed.

It should be mentioned that it took the Germans ~4 years to beat the Italian record set with a seaplane(MC-72), you know, the one with the huge floats attached.

Offline Grendel

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2004, 01:10:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
You've got the facts a bit mixed up. The 109B set a record in 1937, but no Spitfire was competing, let alone one with 2000 hp.

 


No. My facts are exactly where they belong.

Spitfire definitely attempted to break the world speed record in 1937 with a specially modified Merlin II engine installed.

Yet they didn't make it.

There's information about this on the net too. For example:

http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk/engines.htm

->
"It is worthy of note that in 1937 an attempt was made to break the World Landplane Speed Record, using a highly modified Spitfire I and a specially strengthened Merlin II. This engine actually generated 2160HP, and showed the potential for development of the engine. Most of the modifications developed for this engine eventually found their way into production Merlins. The Merlin III was adapted for the use of a constant-speed propeller and a constant-speed unit."

The attempt during 1938, with modifying another Spitfire I serial K9834, is a separate case, which was given up after the record flight of Me 209.

You shouldn't try to correct others, when your own facts aren't up to it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2004, 01:25:39 PM by Grendel »

Offline Angus

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2004, 01:40:06 PM »
Yes, the Brits ran a Merlin up to above 2000 hp already in 1937. The Engine actually was unchanged from standard, but the fuel was a special mixture.
The aircraft was a production line Spitfire, and that test occured in 1938 and 1939. The Speed was in excess of 408 mph.
What I'd really like to know would be how well it climbed.
The Weight and wing of a Spit I with 2000 hp and a 3 blade CS screw would definately have taken the world climbing record. However, that was not so interesting at the time.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Staga

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2004, 02:01:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Considering that the P-51H, in military trim, did almost 490mph, the Spiteful did ~480mph..... One should not put to much stock in the 30 years it took to officially beat the Me209's speed.


Like it or not:
26 Apr 1939     Augsburg, Germany     Fritz Wendel     Germany     Messerscmitt Me209 V1     IC     469.22     Last piston-engined record


btw what altitude did P-51H and Spiteful achieved those speeds?
Because these records had to be flown in a 3km long track with altitude under 75 meters.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2004, 02:04:44 PM by Staga »

Offline Angus

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2004, 02:16:46 PM »
Staga, you're out of date.
Todays data:
"Piston-Powered Aircraft  Grumman F8F Bearcat  528.33 mph
(849.55 km/h)  21 August 1989  "

I don't know about the absolute speed records of P51's and Sea Furys, but I belive that both may have broken the 209's record. After all, the Sea Fury has a top level speed of 460 WITH COMBAT LOADING, and without todays engine tweaks......
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Staga

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2004, 02:28:05 PM »
460mph at SL ? Pretty good.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2004, 02:42:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
Like it or not:
26 Apr 1939     Augsburg, Germany     Fritz Wendel     Germany     Messerscmitt Me209 V1     IC     469.22     Last piston-engined record

btw what altitude did P-51H and Spiteful achieved those speeds?
Because these records had to be flown in a 3km long track with altitude under 75 meters.


Liking it or not has nothing to do with it.:rolleyes: No one made any official challenges on the record even though there were a/c that could and did fly faster. Jets a/c were 'in, piston a/c 'out''.:)

Since when is Augsburg at SL?:) It is at an elevation of 1519ft, so if your 209 flew at less than 75m SL then it was must have been one super a/c to 'fly' through solid ground.

What altitude did the SR-71 set its FAI speed records at. Certainly not within 75m of SL.:eek:
« Last Edit: August 02, 2004, 02:51:27 PM by MiloMorai »

Offline Angus

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2004, 02:53:56 PM »
SL? No Idea.
I've heard that the record was broken in the 60's by a P51, possibly Griffon powered. Anyone have more on that?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2004, 03:15:27 PM »
Retarded discussion. In 1939 this 209 was the fastest thing going at any altitude, bar none, using the best technology of the day.  By 1945 it wasnt, the Me262 and P80 were faster at every altitude.

Arguing over the official record is as meanngless as arguing over who had the fastest horse and buggy passenger service in the age of railroads.. Nobody cares and its certainly not "the fastest" -and fastest is the point.

Another example of this is the F8F Bearcat climb record to 10,000  which was "only" broken by an F16 many years later. Right, just imagine what those cold war era interceptors were doing with their 25,000+ fpm climb rates every single day...

Offline Nashwan

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2004, 03:35:04 PM »
Quote
No. My facts are exactly where they belong.

Spitfire definitely attempted to break the world speed record in 1937 with a specially modified Merlin II engine installed.

Yet they didn't make it.

There's information about this on the net too. For example:


Don't believe every fact an internet search turns up.

Prior to May 1938, there was 1 Spitfire flying, the prototype K 5054. On the 14th May, the first production aircraft, K9787, first flew.

If a Spitfire tried to break any records in 1937, it could only have been the prototype, K5054.

K5054 was fitted with a Merlin "C" in 1936, when it first flew, and later had a production Merlin II fitted, developing 1050 hp. It was never fitted with a more powerfull engine, certainly nothing approaching 2000hp.

This is what Spitfire The History has to say about the "speed Spitfire" that was intended to break the world record:

First meeting of the Supermarine record team 7th September 1937

The minutes of the meeting contained the following summary:

It is estimated that the Spitfire without serious modification could attain a speed of between 375 and 400 mphunder World's Record Conditions. Engine output. It is understood that using special fuel the Merlin should develop 1850/1900 hp at 3000 rpmon the bench at sea level. Allowing for forward intake effectthis becomes approximately 2100 bhp. With this, it is estmated that the maximum level speed of the Spitfire would be 373 mph. This assumes no unforseen drag or compressibility effects occur and is based on the Martelsham level speed of 349 mph at 16,000ft with a Merlin C engine developing 1000 hpfor the prototype aircraft. On 7th August a modified Merlin II was running at Rolls-Royce producing 1536 ho. Fuel was a mix of Benzol petrol and Methanol, with lead added for anti-knock.

There's more about ways to increase the speed, use of different props, windscreen, exhausts, removing the tailwheel etc.

A team from RR then met Supermarine on 10th September to discuss fuel and cooling systems.

On 9th Nov RR and Supermarine met again, and RR said the first engine would be ready in a few weeks, and would provide 1,995 hp at 375 mph.

The first full meeting of the record team took place on 25th November. They agreed 2 aircraft should be prepared for the record attempt, In the event no work was carried out on the second aircraft.

Four days later, RR said a standard engine providing 2000 hp could be ready in 6 weeks, an engine providing 2100 hp would take 12 weeks.

The next meeting was on the 13th Dec and laid out the conditions for testing, 5 runs of 10 miles each being required.

By 12th May 1938 work had slowed down, witha meeting at de Havilland still not having decided on a prop.

On 20th June the first special engine had been cleared for normal water cooling, and a flight engine was promised for mid July.

That's taken us up to mid 1938, and still no attempt on the record. In fact, the record plane wasn't even in the configuration decided on for the record attempt.

AFAIK, they never actually made an attempt on the record, and the plane never flew with 2000 hp.

Guppy could probably give you the full details though.

Offline HoHun

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2004, 04:05:07 PM »
Hi Angus,

>What I'd really like to know would be how well it climbed.
The Weight and wing of a Spit I with 2000 hp and a 3 blade CS screw would definately have taken the world climbing record.

I'd say 35 m/s initial climb, 3:02 min to 5 km :-)

At sea level, a continous 5 G turn with 12 s per 360° should have been possible. "Achtung, Spinfire!" ;-)

(All with a different propeller, of course - either more blades like the late-war Spitfires, or more area per blade like the late-war Me 109s.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Angus

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2004, 05:17:01 PM »
What speed record was put with the 109.??
I mean the 209 is no 109. It's a specially built little aeroplane with the sole goal of speed record breaking.
The "Speed" Spitfire was just a production type mod with an original production line engine.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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Bf 109 G range and endurance
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2004, 07:01:03 PM »
Angus, there was 2 Messerschmitt a/c, the Bf109V-13 which set one record and can be compared, sort of, to the High Speed Spit and the Bf209V-1 which set the other speed record.