Author Topic: Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability  (Read 5146 times)

Offline Crumpp

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2004, 10:46:43 AM »
Again Milo,

You can check here and see anytime.  The docs are already posted.  The pilots manual/tech manual simply back up and clarify the data presented.

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.htm

Angus, bro, MW30/50 and EW were corrosive but not detrimental to the engine.  Luftwaffe engines did have to be replaced more frequently.  IMO this has more to do with the fact they were high compression which means more wear and tear.

It is very easy to get LW boost systems confused.  

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2004, 11:22:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Hmm, look at this way: replace spark plugs every 6-7 hours (=avarage Mustang sortie, in others words, after every sortie) because of fouling, or check for signs of corrosion after every 50 hours, roughly twice the life expancy of an avarage fighter on the front.?


As I said Angus, Issy tries to put any spin he can on spark plug fouling.:)

A 6-7 hr flight, most of the time over enemy territory. Prudence would dictate that the plugs would be changed to ensure that the a/c would return safely. Do race cars change their plugs after practice? Sure they do. Logical practice it is.

German a/c, over 'friendly' territory with a flight time of 1-2 hrs can land if the engine goes 'sour'.


re 109 engine change times

Yes! The 605 installation in the 109 is very good for motor changes! However, 20mins would be an exceptional time . You could only do this with a fully-cowlled and prepared engine, all ready like an F1 pitstop! A normal engine-change with a motor in a crate and equipment available would take 3 men around 8hrs, IMO.
The complete motor can be easily removed. However, it takes alot of time to dress the replacement motor with all the ancillarys from the old motor. So, if you had spare motors and cowlings and ancillarys etc, you could do a quick-change.
 (my bold)

This, by schwarze man, who has no agenda, unlike a couple of other here, is from a post at http://pub157.ezboard.com/bluftwaffeexperten71774


As usual, Issy give the exception, not the typical/normal, in his attempts to show how uber Germany was.

Recommend you visit there for un-biased facts/data regarding German a/c.

Offline MiloMorai

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2004, 11:25:38 AM »
Crumpp, :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .

Offline GODO

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2004, 12:09:43 PM »
MW50 corrosive? How can it be?

Offline straffo

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2004, 12:15:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GODO
MW50 corrosive? How can it be?

if you drink it perhaps ?

(dunno for sure)

Offline GScholz

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2004, 12:20:04 PM »
Luftwaffe Schnapps Boost system.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Nashwan

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2004, 12:44:46 PM »
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2. Every test of the FW190 against a Merlin Spitfire has the 190 out diving the Spit. Fact and no way to get around it.


From Lucky 13 by Hugh Godefroy Godefroy was the Spit pilot in the RAF trials against Arnim Faber's 190 ("Jamie" is Jamie Rankin, flying the 190)

Quote
If Jamie followed the favourite German technique of flicking over on his back and going straight down, he would pull away from me in the first two or three thousand feet. After that the Spitfire IXB could gradually catch him. Jamie never bothered trying to turn inside me in my Spitfire. Both of us knew that it wasn't possible. That was one advantage that all British fighters enjoyed. At the end of the trials, when I added up the pluses and the minuses, I came to the conclusion that I would still prefer a Spitfire IXB.

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2004, 01:32:56 PM »
Maybe AH2`s dive model is based on the pilot story of Hugh and Jamie? ;) Seriously, it`s not really a controlled test.

Spit IXB, could that be = LF / Merlin 66 ?

Offline MiloMorai

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2004, 02:14:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Seriously, it`s not really a controlled test.


So we all should disregard all those British comparison trials then. It was during these same trials that Nashwan's pilot quote came from. Was not a dive test one of the tests done?

Offline Crumpp

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2004, 06:17:47 PM »
Quote
The FW 190 is faster than the Spitfire IX in a dive, particularly during the initial stage. This superiority is not as marked as with the Spitfire VB.


http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire9v190.htm

This is Spit XIV which COULD outdive the 190 but only "slightly".


Quote
‘In combat the Spitfire XIV should use its remarkable maximum climb and turning circle against any enemy aircraft. In the attack it can afford to mix it but should be aware of the quick roll and dive. If this manoeuvre is used by an enemy Fw190 and the Spitfire XIV follows, it will probably not be able to close the range until the Fw190 has pulled out of the dive’.


http://www.romanbritain.freeserve.co.uk/spitdig.htm

Again the Spit XIV vs FW190A

Quote
Dive
40. After the initial part of the dive, during which the FW 190 gains slightly, the Mk XIV has a slight advantage.


And for the Spit XIV vs Spit IX

Quote
Dive
17. The Spitfire XIV will pull away from the Spitfire IX in a dive.


http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14afdu.html

Quote
Obviously therefore, steps had to be taken immediately to counter this new and very dangerous threat. One of the first steps was to clip the wings of the Spitfire V's, thus improving their low-altitude capability enough to be able to rival the Fw-190. This was not however, an adequate upgrade, and it was clear that a new model would be required. This came in the form of the Spitfire Mk IX. The Spitfire IX appeared with all three types of wing; the extended, standard and clipped wing, and also introduced a new armament configuration; a combination of two 20mm Hispano cannon and two .50-inch Browning machine guns. The Mk IX did not solve the problem of the Fw-190, but when combined with new Hawker Typhoon aircraft, did help the situation. The Mk IX was fitted with a higher-powered version of the Merlin, the Merlin 61, rated at 1,660hp. 5,665 Spitfire Mk IX's were produced. The Mk X was powered by a 1,650hp Merlin 77 engine, and the Mk XI was powered by either a 1,760hp Merlin 63, or a Merlin 70 rated at 1,665hp.


http://www.wwiitech.net/main/britain/aircraft/spitfire/

The Spitfire could outdive the FW-190 if it had Mk XIV at the end of it's name.  The SPIT XIV could dominate the FW-190A but never a merlin powered version.

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2004, 07:30:02 PM »
Just finished meeting with my buddy who is checking my translations.  Got my manuals back too.

Here is the deal on FW-190 "boost" and some stuff I learned about the FW.

The BMW 801D-2 in the FW-190A8 was rated for 1.65ata at 2700U/min for 10 minutes WITHOUT any boost.

It was rated for 1.65ata for 40 minutes with C3.  Makes sense because the C3 acted to cool the heads and not really increase manifold pressure.

C3 is NOT dependant on the 115 liter tank.

The 190 had 3 flap settings.  Take off, landing, and retracted.  Take off (10 degrees + or - 3 degrees) flaps could be deployed at 500 kph IAS.  Equal to USAAF combat flaps.

Weight for the 190A8 basic fighter version without 115 liter tank, winterizing kit (25 kg), and extra radio's/direction finding equipment of the jagerfuhrer is 3,927 kg.  This still retains 4 MG 151's and only has the 400 rd MG 131 hoppers.

My buddy advised me not to post the pages as the stuff is copyrighted.  So I emailed Pyro and will sending it to him directly.

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2004, 08:48:33 PM »
Dive speed table from the handbook:
It is the same table for all the FW's from the A-1 to the A-9.

0-2 km -  850 kph

3 km   -   800 kph

5 km  -    700 kph

7 km  -    600 kph

9 km  -    500 kph

Below 5 KM ASL the FW-190 was faster in a dive up to a max of around  50 mph.  At 29,527 feet the Spitfire Mk IX had a 30 mph speed advantage once it overcame the FW's initial dive accelleration.

Crumpp

Offline Adogg

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Acrimonious P1ss1ng into the wind...
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2004, 12:20:08 PM »
...basically the whole debate has been rendered null and void by the bullsht posturing here.

Did anyone here fly any of the birds in question?

Have any air or military museums tried to do modern day comparisons?

Frankly I don't know about the aircraft in question but I can tell rank amatuers pissing into the wind when I read them. Beggaring thy neighbours arguments through belittlement and assinine, smart bellybutton comments essentially proves one thing - the inadequacy of your arguments.

So someone has an undying devotion to the 190, 109 or the spit?

Let them have it. Basically its a vessle for the truely decisive weapon in the air. The pilot. The combination of reflexes, thinking, conditions etc. etc. The aircraft performance was a factor - doubtless, but you knew what you were flying and you used your advantages as best you could.

the planes in AH are at best aproximations, if a spit dives faster than a 190 in the game, and you're in a 190, guess what? DON'T DIVE! - You're the pilot, besides the scoring doesn't give a damn if historically the spit fire could or could not out accelerate you in a dive. The kill is already credited to the other guy if that's all you can answer with. And it goes the other way too. The modelling will never be right ... all you can answer with is your stick.

OH and stop ruining the forum with personal attacks and rancorous dismissals. It doesn't support your argument.

[edited for spelling]
« Last Edit: July 23, 2004, 12:24:35 PM by Adogg »

Offline Crumpp

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2004, 05:50:19 PM »
Addog,

If you don't have realistic modeling with in the limits of the computer it is not a sim.  Some guys are jerks, some guys like Angus and Guppy35 just have a passion for the history and details.

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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Any good explanation about "new" spit diving ability
« Reply #74 on: July 23, 2004, 07:18:29 PM »
BTW,

Downside to C3 Injection.  It cooled the engine while using 1.65 ata but at the expense of fuel consumption.

70 liters/5 min was the rate!  So if you loaded up an FW-190A8 with a 300 liter fuel drop tank and the 115 liter auxilery tank you only had enough fuel for 40 minutes of flight time,

So the Luftwaffe had a good reason for mounting the 115 aux tank in C3 boost equipped 190's.

Crumpp