Author Topic: Bf110G-2 vs. Mosquito FB.Mk VI (Read 2332 times)

Urchin · « **Reply #30 on:** July 23, 2004, 12:13:21 PM »

I've flown both, but not extensively.. I'd prefer the Mosquito for Bore n Zoom, but the 110 for fighting.

Probably take the 110 for blowing up towns and the Mossie for killing GVs though.

GODO · « **Reply #31 on:** July 23, 2004, 12:13:39 PM »

I don not overestimate anything, I fly 110G2 on a regular basis.

JB73 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 23, 2004, 12:51:57 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
In my experience the Bf110G-2 is an easy kill, and I'm not flying La-7s or anything. I think you are overstating the Bf110G-2's air-to-air capabilities.

it is an easy kill, if you know what you are doing.... but make a single mistake, and all it takes is 1 super quick shot by the 110... you are dead. thats kinda what i was trying to say.
the biggest danger to a 110 is a spit V with E. la7's seem to have an especially hard time hitting my 110 at least .. they are usualyl too fast, and i fight them on the stall edge with 2 notches of flaps (about 160 IAS).

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
I have also been seeing way, way too many P-51s, Typhoons, Fw190D-9s and especially La-7s. I'm not very fond of this 1945 ultra fast MA.

i usualyl fly the dora myself, but i love sneaking someont into a fight with the A5.

the other plane im flying a TON of is the 109F, flown as an E fighter, wow its good.

GScholz · « **Reply #33 on:** July 23, 2004, 01:37:54 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
Now, why did the Mosquito have anything like a good reputation in reality? If the performance in AH is at all accurate I would think that canceling the Mosquito would have been very high on the list of things to do. Yet it continued production after the war was over. Why? It is clearly inferior not only to the P-38, but also to the earlier Bf110 despite having significantly more powerful engines.

This seems like a recipe for a failure of an aircraft, yet history records it as one of the most successful and usefull aircraft of WWII.

I've already answered that:

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Your earlier argument that the Mosquito was heralded as a success while the Bf110 was a failure is a mismatch of contexts. Yes the Bf110 was a failure as a day fighter, but the Mosquito never was a day fighter. Both planes served well as night-fighters, and the Mosquito also was a successful light bomber/ground attack plane (its designed role) and recon plane. The Bf110 was designed as a fighter, and is much better than any bomber in a dogfight.

The Mosquito never was a day fighter. It was a very succesful light bomber and night figther. The Bf110 also was a succesful night fighter.

GScholz · « **Reply #34 on:** July 23, 2004, 01:38:46 PM »

Don't give ALL the secrets away 73.

Remember Streng Geheim!

straffo · « **Reply #35 on:** July 23, 2004, 01:50:44 PM »

For GScholtz only (I don't want to piss too many people

)

Twin engined planes are for people not confident enought to fly single engine fighter

gniark gniark gniark gniark

GScholz · « **Reply #36 on:** July 23, 2004, 01:54:30 PM »

Look at my avatard you jumping frog! (now look at yours

)

thrila · « **Reply #37 on:** July 23, 2004, 02:11:12 PM »

GScholz, i'm pretty sure mossie raids were sometimes themselves escorted by mossies.

The mossie also used to go on rhubarbs to LW airfields hoping to bounce a/c landing or taking off. Not exactly dogfighting though hehe.

Karnak · « **Reply #38 on:** July 23, 2004, 02:15:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
I've already answered that:

I don't think that you have really. Not when you look at the actuall use which is far more varied than you seem to indicate.

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
The Mosquito never was a day fighter. It was a very succesful light bomber and night figther. The Bf110 also was a succesful night fighter.

Actually it was employed as a day fighter as well, although it was not ideal in that role. For example I recall one time when a squadron of FB VIs engaged a number of Fw190s. They got two of the 190s, but lost four Mosquitos.

In AH the Mosquito is a dismal failure as a strike aircraft. It has neither hitting power nor survivability. In reality it had both those things when compared with other aircraft.

We don't have a light or medium bomber version of the Mosquito, so that is irrelevant. It is the FB.Mk VI that we do have that the RAF ordered in greater numbers than any other due to it's versatility.

The Mosquito was a better night fighter than the Bf110, but not in the form of the FB.Mk VI, which was not a night fighter and has engines tuned too low to be really effective in that role, even when it was equipped with "Serrate" and used as a NF.

FB.Mk VIs ranged over Europe in all weather and at all hours. The Beaufighter was not cleared for Intruder operations during the day, the Mosquito was. Day Ranger missions were flown, very successfully, by Mosquito FB.Mk VIs (the color scheme on AH's Mossie is that of a Day Ranger) from late '43 to late '44.

None of these things seem suited to the Mosquito in AH. As has been pointed out, the Bf110G-2 is actually better at all of them.

Why were the German envious enough of it to try to copy the concept and to try to get Finland to make a literal copy?

GScholz · « **Reply #39 on:** July 23, 2004, 02:47:16 PM »

Again apples and oranges. The Bf110 and Mosquito are two different planes designed for different roles. The Mosquito was VERY versatile, and that more than anything made it a great aircraft. The Germans did indeed want a Mosquito of their own, but not because it was a fighter. They were impressed with its ability to make fast low-level attacks in France and get away with it. Any comparison between the MA and real life is a falacy. The MA is a gamy environment in which the Mossie has little chance of finding a role for itself. The real Mossies never flew in such an environment and never faced that kind of opposition.

That the Mosquito engaged German fighters on a few occasions does not make it a fighter. That the Mosquito's were forced to escort themselves on deep penetration missions because no British fighter had the range to escort them does not make the Mosquito a fighter.

That the Mosquito was a better night fighter than the Bf110 is arguable. I think the Ju88G was the most successful night fighter of the war.

Karnak · « **Reply #40 on:** July 23, 2004, 03:24:10 PM »

If it were just the MA I'd agree. The Mossie never had to operate in that hostile an environment. It never had to deal with Typhoons, P-51s and La-7s, and only rarely with Bf109G-10/K-4s or Fw190D-9s.

However, it is no more useful in the CT or scenarios. It is incapable of doing fast, low level attacks and getting away with it.

(BTW, they did those all over occupied Europe, not just France)

As to the NF capabilities, well, the Mossie was going after other night fighters, not ponderous bombers in huge streams of hundreds of aircraft.

Pure shoot down numbers don't really tell the whole story.

GScholz · « **Reply #41 on:** July 23, 2004, 03:37:05 PM »

Other gamy environments. Turn off the flashing of bases and then tell me that the Mossie is incapable of attacking a strat target flying on the deck, making one attack and then immediately leaving the area. 10 minutes later the opposing force gets a message that the strat target was hit, and only then can respond. Tell me that the Mossie is incapable of doing that in AH.

GScholz · « **Reply #42 on:** July 23, 2004, 03:39:40 PM »

Shooting down bombers is the main objective of any night-fighter. The Mossie was used as a "anti-night fighter" because most of the German night-fighters were converted bombers themselves.

Karnak · « **Reply #43 on:** July 23, 2004, 04:28:38 PM »

You seem to be claiming that the accounts of Mosquito crews that they were intercepted by Fw190s or Bf109s and simply flat outran them are incorrect.

There are many such accounts.

In AH any 1943 109 or 190 will simply run the Mossie down. You have to go back to the Bf109F-4 to find a German single engined fighter in AH that the Mossie can outrun.

Nightfighters I've seen Mossie claims on:

Bf109
Bf110
Fw190
Ju88
Me410
He219

None of those, not even the Ju88, are as cumbersome as a Lancaster or Halifax.

Now, admittedly, night fighters are ambush killers. However, the smaller size, higher speed and propensity to make unexpected and dramatic course changes does make them much more elusive targets even when they are aware that they are being hunted.

And no, the goal of night fighters is not to shoot down the bombers. It is to accoumplish the mission they are tasked with. That may be shooting down the bombers, but it also may be escorting the bombers and protecting the bomber stream. It might also be shooting up ground targets. Night fighters did all of these missions.

GScholz · « **Reply #44 on:** July 23, 2004, 04:44:03 PM »

The Mossie is fully capable of outrunning 109F-G6 and Fw190A5, as long as the fighters don't dive on you, and/or if the Mossie has alt that can be converted into speed.

You seem to think that the Mossie was some kind of super speed daemon. It wasn't. It used surprise and its high low-alt speed to avoid combat. If caught it could run with a decent chance of getting away in REAL LIFE. In the MA it is an easy kill because the fighters will run it down regardless of their own safety, in real life fighters weren't flying on mil-power all the time, and the English Channel isn't that wide.