Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers

[Kweassa]

So far in the history of AH, many problems have been pointed out as killing game play due to exploitation of the system - and thus, it was fixed.

 There were "car-bombers" - taking off in bombers, and detonating bombs while on the runway. This was fixed. There was the "instant AA platform" - people spawning bombers on the runway to use it as AA platform. This was fixed. Individual planes destroying fuel objetcs to instantly suffocate the entire front - this was fixed.

 ...

 Now it seems to me, the only thing left which really should be looked into is the "divebombing heavy bombers".

 Low level bomb drops itself is not necessarily a problem, as long as it is executed in the proper way. If someone could actually manage to slip in with a formation of bombers at low altitudes, and properly drop bombs and damage stuff, that is an admirable feat.

 However, when bombers come in low, starts swerving around and diving about, and sprays its entire bomb load all over the place with no regards to proper flight planning, insertion, calibration, drop, and escape procedures... that's something entirely different from a properly executed low-level bombing attack. It's 'gaming the game' - as in exploitation of the system. The person who does that has no regards to learning or practicing the proper bombing techniques.

 ....

 Not only does it give the real dedicated bomber folk a bad name, but it also makes fools out of the people who actually practiced hard to execute bombing attacks.

 I enjoy bombing and take pride in the precision of my work. It took me a lot of time to practice and perfect the calibration process, and also years of experience is what has taught me how to plan a flight path which I can achieve my goal and come back alive at the same time.
 
 However, the people who spray bombs like confetti with the bomber formations achieve better results with immediate effects, despite the fact that they never really practiced anything.

 If I am to kill a CV with a formation of buffs, I have to take off at least 30 miles away, take time to gain alt, plan a course, receive info updates on whereabouts, and carefully drop bombs in the exact spot to kill it. Whereas if a typical dweeb wants to kill a CV he will just climb to about 5k, and go dive bombing into the CV.

 Stupidity, recklessness, and disregard towards personal safety, pays off higher dividends than skill, practice, experience, and caution.

 This should be stopped.

 Bombers, is not some cheap trick dweeb platform for n00bs.

 Bombing, is not a simple dweeb-run method to take care of ground obejcts or CVs.

[Kweassa]

In regards to specific methods to cure the "dive bombing buff formations", I present the following suggestions which I think should have considerable effect.


1. Bombs will be dropped only when in a bombardier's position(F6)

 The bombardier takes total control of the buff in real life. A steady bomb run is always required, which is why the bombardier moves the plane carefully until the crosshairs come in target. Dropping bombs from external views should be stopped.

 F3 external view is a means to compensate for the lack of multiple crewmen, not some cheap view point which a person can abuse to drop bombs in heavy bombers.

 Prohibiting bomb drops outside the bombardier's postion in level buffs, will stop people from abusing F3 external views.


2. Bombs will not be dropped, when climb/decent guage is over +/- 500 ft.

 Speaks for itself. A bomber must be level. If it's climbing/descending over 500ft per minute the bombs will refuse to drop.


3. Above applies to the following bombers - Boston3, Lancaster3, B-17, B-26

 The heavy bombers, with internal payload that is to be delivered through the bomb bay, equipped with a bomb sight,  will be under such restrictions.


4. Above will apply to the Ju88A with its internal ordnance

 External ordnance on the Ju88, should be free of such restrictions, as the Ju88 was both a dive bomber and a level bomber.


5. Above will not apply to Ar234

 Ar234s were known to be able to use its special bombsight to execute low-angle dive bomb runs.

[Halo]

Okay, good points with a request made many times, and while horizontal bombing is being fixed, need to also stop C-47s from ejecting paratroopers in vertical pullups like toss bombing.

[F1Bomber]

Kweassa do you want to remove bomber pilots completly from the game?

If you havent noticed that there are serious bugs with bombers at the moment stoping people from flying them.

Starters.

The first bug, is that when the tail gunner in any bommer is killed it is carried accross to every other drone in the formation. THis means if your tail gunner dies, your join player will not be able to use his because yours has just died. The only way around this bug, is to eject from the damage tail gunner, your bomber and spawn in your drone bomber. But this gives the enemy some time to kill you and your bombers anyway.

Next.
B26s tail gunner do not die! yes, they dont die. Dont agree with me, up one and get one of your squad mates to shot at the tail gunner, he wont go down.

Historicaly speaking, that lancs did dive bomb in some missions with high suxcess rates. I dont know the source but it was used by the raaf acouple of times.

I dont think its gaming the game, a fighter pilot could allways up and do the same thing.

The truth of the matter is that, level bombing is a very fast way of transporting you back to the tower. You just get alot of cons on your six in a matter of seconds. Dont trust me on this, up a lanc formation and fly over a base with sufficient allies air power. People break off from there dogfight and come right after the bombers. For the easy kill.

Well, i am not one to argue. Just pointing out mistakes in your suggestions.

instead how about having radio controled bombs, they used them with great suxcess with nocking out bridges.

[F1Bomber]

btw why do bomber pilots need to pratice for months and months to be very effective in bombers.

If a dweeb can achieve the same goal of a pro in a matter of minutes dive bombing a base isnt he being more effective and time management skills are better?

Hes taking the same game functions and applying them in a different way, i see nothing wrong with that.

Why should only elite pilots who have trained for months to be very accurate in bombers get any re-ward? isnt killing the target the greatest re-ward you can get, even through you use the same game restrictions as everyone else.

My point, it seems like your on a power trip, and need to relax and see aces high 2 as a game not some flight sim.

[Soulyss]

I would think the dedicated buff pilots, and I know there are some of you out there, would welcome changes to the system to eliminate or limit dive bombing heavy bombers.  It would make the skills of the buff fan more in demand.  Same reason I would feel if I worked really hard to be able to hit somthing with a heavy only to have the precision sight turned on for a scenario because the other system is too hard.  

Becoming a better fighter pilot requires work and practice, becoming a better bomber pilot should illicit the same response.


Then again it is a game and everyone pays their own $15 to play as they will.

[Sikboy]

Great presentation Kweassa!

You identified a percieved flaw in the current gameplay, cited precident for previous "fixes" for the sake of gameplay, and presented possible fixes for the current topic.

I really enjoy level bombing, and absolutely love the Bombsite Calibration and everything that was added to bombing to make it a challenging aspect of gameplay. I guess not everyone was up to the challenge.

-Sik

[Soda]

Originally posted by F1Bomber
btw why do bomber pilots need to pratice for months and months to be very effective in bombers.

You can learn to calibrate, perfectly, in a single evening and there isn't even wind in AH2 to offer a challenge at higher altitudes.  People who take a month aren't doing it properly.. it shouldn't even take an hour.

The other bomber issues will be addressed I'm sure, likely the graphical/disco issues some people are having are just taking precedence right now (and rightfully so).  Some of the same bomber issues were in AH1 and were corrected (damage transfer)

Jabo vs Bomber, Apple vs Orange, 2-2,500lb's of ord vs 42,000lbs.  Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why people suicide bombers like jabo planes.

[sling322]

Originally posted by Halo
Okay, good points with a request made many times, and while horizontal bombing is being fixed, need to also stop C-47s from ejecting paratroopers in vertical pullups like toss bombing.

Nooooo!!!!  I love the vertical or inverted troop drops.

[Kweassa]

Kweassa do you want to remove bomber pilots completly from the game?

 Yes. If the only sort of "bomber pilots" around is those sort of dweebs, then we certainly don't need any of them.

 

If you havent noticed that there are serious bugs with bombers at the moment stoping people from flying them.

 None of the two bugs you've presented is 'serious' nor relevant of this matter.

Historicaly speaking, that lancs did dive bomb in some missions with high suxcess rates. I dont know the source but it was used by the raaf acouple of times.

 Need a proof. Were those sort of missions anything common/effective enough to consider it as a normal, represantative method of bombing for the particular aircraft we have in AH?

 I think not.

I dont think its gaming the game, a fighter pilot could allways up and do the same thing.

 Except an ordnance load a fighter pilot carries, is nothing like what bomber formations carry. Those two are not the same.

The truth of the matter is that, level bombing is a very fast way of transporting you back to the tower. You just get alot of cons on your six in a matter of seconds. Dont trust me on this, up a lanc formation and fly over a base with sufficient allies air power. People break off from there dogfight and come right after the bombers. For the easy kill.

 Then how come I bomb stuff at hostile territory without escort fighters and come back alive all the time?


....

If a dweeb can achieve the same goal of a pro in a matter of minutes dive bombing a base isnt he being more effective and time management skills are better?

 No.

 He's merely using a different CATEGORY of aircraft, to do a different METHOD of attack run. I'd up fighters and go precision strike jabo runs if 2000lbs ord. can do me the job.

 However, if I want FHs, SBs, towns, industrial facilities, cities and HQ out of the picture, then I take a bomber, and go bombing.

 

Hes taking the same game functions and applying them in a different way, i see nothing wrong with that.  

 Like the different way the car-bombers used to do? Or like the way how people spawned bombers on the ground as AA platforms?

 The 'different way' in those cases, was proved be an abusement, which consequentially got the specific action banned from the game.

 I'm expecting the same with this issue - as it is more dweebey then any other previous issues addressed by HTC.

[Kweassa]

Okay, good points with a request made many times, and while horizontal bombing is being fixed, need to also stop C-47s from ejecting paratroopers in vertical pullups like toss bombing.

 I don't know if those sort of goon drops are threatening the gameplay in anyway, but to follow the basic principle behind my suggestion I'd agree.

 It would certainly take more careful goon runs to do the job.

[F1Bomber]

Yes. If the only sort of "bomber pilots" around is those sort of dweebs, then we certainly don't need any of them.

Well can you start paying my $15 a month, and all the other pilots who quit because of this un-needed modification of the bombers.

Need a proof. Were those sort of missions anything common/effective enough to consider it as a normal, represantative method of bombing for the particular aircraft we have in AH?

So your saying that it wasnt normal for bomber pilots but a select threw so it shouldnt be included in the game, but removed?

Except an ordnance load a fighter pilot carries, is nothing like what bomber formations carry. Those two are not the same.

Once a fighter has droped his load he can vulch the field or play a bigger role in destorying smaller targets. Completly different considering that the bomber is mostly defenseless after the drop and have to make the trip back.

No.

He's merely using a different CATEGORY of aircraft, to do a different METHOD of attack run. I'd up fighters and go precision strike jabo runs if 2000lbs ord. can do me the job.

However, if I want FHs, SBs, towns, industrial facilities, cities and HQ out of the picture, then I take a bomber, and go bombing.  

Hes using the same category of aircraft just using it more effectivly than you to complete the goal.

Like the different way the car-bombers used to do? Or like the way how people spawned bombers on the ground as AA platforms?

Those issue were resolved becase they removed the possibility of capturing a field. Its completly different if the bomber takes time to get alt and in and sinc a cv by using div bomb tatics.

One last note.
If fields or any other strat targets dont have defense over the field, or cv. And they allow a bomber pilot who dive bombers to apprach then sinc the cv, because they were too lazy then they deserve what they get. I dont see the point in forcing bomber pilots to play a set role in the game only being allowed to level bomb.

[RTSigma]

I like these points and ideas.

As for saying bombers are completely useless after a bomb run, then why not just get rid of them?

People enjoy the experience of being in a bomber formation and executing bomb attacks from high alt, just like in WWII.

Theres no real point in using a bomber like a Jabo, they're not fast, manueverable, and practically vulnerable at low altitude..

Come to think of it,...I have only seen something like that no more than a few times. Whenever I see a bomber, its high alt and on a course, not diving.

There are more people that fly bombers like they should than you think. Just because some people turn this into an Crimson Skies game for themselves doesn't mean everyone should suffer and doesn't mean they can't learn how to fly the bomber the RIGHT way.

[simshell]

Originally posted by F1Bomber
Well can you start paying my $15 a month, and all the other pilots who quit because of this un-needed modification of the bombers

F1bomber its my 15$ so i want all aircraft unperk i want to fly my tempest all the time its my 15$   WHHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

[Kweassa]

Well can you start paying my $15 a month, and all the other pilots who quit because of this un-needed modification of the bombers.

 Or you can try to become a better bomber pilot, no?

So your saying that it wasnt normal for bomber pilots but a select threw so it shouldnt be included in the game, but removed?

 No. I'm saying your evidence is flimsy.

 Too weak to support any kind of gameplay action that exploits heavy, four-engined bomber platforms as being used as angled dive bombers.

 

Once a fighter has droped his load he can vulch the field or play a bigger role in destorying smaller targets. Completly different considering that the bomber is mostly defenseless after the drop and have to make the trip back.

 
 So? That's what a bomber is.

 What did you think it was when someone signed on as a bomber pilot? Instant action all around?

 Or is your definition of "fun bombing" a intentional one-way trip that smashes your plane, formation, and its entire payload against defensive wall of enemy fighters? (Sounds like kamikaze run to me.)

Hes using the same category of aircraft just using it more effectivly than you to complete the goal.

 Wrong.

 He's exploiting a fault in the system which cannot recreate reality to its fullest. Thus, problems considering reality emerge, as people dig out all kinds of weird and unexpected methods that would never have taken place in real life.

 Most of the times the consequences are not too large. However, when a tard does something like that with formations of bombers that carry tens of thousands of pounds of bombs - it becomes a problem.

Those issue were resolved becase they removed the possibility of capturing a field. Its completly different if the bomber takes time to get alt and in and sinc a cv by using div bomb tatics.

 Nope. Nothing's different.

 When it was set up that way, carbombing and AA buffing was completely "legit" method of field defense in everyway, just in the same way as you imply the divebombing buffs are legit currently.

 But guess what - it was changed. Even when field capture dynamics changed, it didn't come back.

 Such exploitation in the game's limited ability to portray reality, is in essence a sort of a "bug" - a problem which the developers have to constantly try to eliminate, and keep under control.

 

One last note.
If fields or any other strat targets dont have defense over the field, or cv. And they allow a bomber pilot who dive bombers to apprach then sinc the cv, because they were too lazy then they deserve what they get. I dont see the point in forcing bomber pilots to play a set role in the game only being allowed to level bomb.

 The ability to dive bomb in buffs should never have been there in the first place. They're exploting a situation which was not possible in real life.

 As much as an unprotected CV deserves to die, a lazy, dweeby tard who exploits what the game has to offer, should never have place in the game in the first place.

 If somebody quits because the system forces them to do the right thing, then they should quit and go away, instead of clogging this game bandwidth with all their lameness.

 The less of those tards around the better I say.