Author Topic: Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers  (Read 837 times)

Offline XtrmeJ

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2004, 05:56:36 AM »
Bombers did do slight dive bombing, but none of this vertical crap we have here. There shoud be a regulation. Formations should not be able to release bombs while in a steep dive, and single bombers should be able to do slight dives.

Offline F1Bomber

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2004, 10:54:55 AM »
Not going to bother arguing or discussing this topic anymore.

I didnt provide evidence because it wasnt required. The main point i was trying to make was that, you make out that because the pratice of div bombing in real life was not normal, then it shouldnt be in the game. It was done, but not by the large % of bomber pilots.

Hell, most of the time bomber pilots missted completly the targets in real life and they had months of training before hand.

In regards of fun, people have different ideas of what fun is within this game. In this regards i think people would find div bombing fun in bombers, but hell i am not complaining or suggesting fixes to stop peoples fun.

Dont assume i dive bomb lancs or b17s, there are times when it is required in game because of the hords around the bases, to enable your side to disable the enemy field.

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Wrong.

He's exploiting a fault in the system which cannot recreate reality to its fullest. Thus, problems considering reality emerge, as people dig out all kinds of weird and unexpected methods that would never have taken place in real life.

Most of the times the consequences are not too large. However, when a tard does something like that with formations of bombers that carry tens of thousands of pounds of bombs - it becomes a problem.


I am sorry to say that hes using the current game features in the programing to achieve his goal. Btw this isnt reality its a game, people play online for fun, if you want a true flight simulator try il2 or combat flight sim.

Btw, you say that would neve have taken place in real life? Well in real life fighter pilots and bomber pilots did kamikaze only problem this was a one way trip.

Quote
The ability to dive bomb in buffs should never have been there in the first place. They're exploting a situation which was not possible in real life.

As much as an unprotected CV deserves to die, a lazy, dweeby tard who exploits what the game has to offer, should never have place in the game in the first place.

If somebody quits because the system forces them to do the right thing, then they should quit and go away, instead of clogging this game bandwidth with all their lameness.

The less of those tards around the better I say.


So why did hitech code it in then? They're not exploting a situation, they are using a tatic used by unique missions in wwii to achieve there goals.

one last thing, i have hit into people who say things like, "if they dont play by this way then they shouldnt be in the game". They pay there monthly subscription like everyone else, and i think it would be a bad move to remove customers because they are play a game incorrectly to your game you play.

No hard feelings. Just adding another person perspective on the situation that being completly one side discussion.

Well, I havent had a problem with div bombing lancs in this game, hell i have been around for a long time. I find that you can easy kill them by uping a 110, but i think thats too hard for some people to understand.

Offline F1Bomber

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2004, 10:57:50 AM »
Have fun, hope to see you in the skys.

Kweassa

Offline Easyscor

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2004, 11:00:03 AM »
Hitech Definition
Dolt: Someone who doesn't get it (and probably never will.)

I don't know if F1Bomber is a tard but he's probably a dweeb and definetly a Dolt. :rolleyes:

Slight disagreement with you Kweassa but essentially the same thing.

Four engine bombers should not be able to dive bomb period.
Any bombers using the formation option should not be able to dive bomb.
Two engine bombers like the Ju88, B26, Boston/A20 etc should be capable of dive-bombing IF without formations.  Ki-67 and new bombers might be a problem for this one though.
Your rate of decent shouldn't matter if releasing from the bombsight.  Ever run out of fuel short of the target... you might get lucky. ;)

edit for spelling
« Last Edit: July 27, 2004, 11:05:08 AM by Easyscor »
Easy in-game again.
Since Tour 19 - 2001

Offline Adogg

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2004, 11:46:12 AM »
Having started to take bombing quite seriously I have a question...

Why is entering a slight dive in a b26 (formation or no) considered a dweeb tactic?

Providing I'm not suiciding and what I'm doing obeys the laws of physics... i.e. not dropping bombs in a vertical dive or climb ... isn't that an tactical innovation? So while I may be decending on a target my horizontal movement remains as close to neutral as possible...none of this flip-flopping nonsense.

I don't agree with F1bomber.  I see Kwessa's point though.

I would much rather see level bombing enforced somehow than allow dive-bombing b17s.  I can accept a restriction on the b26 providing I can still use light and medium bombers to make dive bombing runs.

(Although for historical flavour it should be noted that Canadian Lancaster Crews would (or did on one occasion) release their bombs over a target (Hamburg I believe) and then proceed to dive and strafe German AAA positions.) :rofl So there's a precident for diving attacks in bombers...just not with a full bomb load.

Offline Sikboy

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2004, 12:03:15 PM »
I do agree with Adogg here, and have no problem with bombers dropping in a shallow dive, especially the likes of the B-26.

To my mind it was more a question of AOA.

-Sik
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Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Oldman731

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2004, 12:24:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy
I do agree with Adogg here, and have no problem with bombers dropping in a shallow dive, especially the likes of the B-26.

This was SOP for B-26s flying out of Port Moresby in 1942.

- oldman

Offline DREDIOCK

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2004, 05:57:01 PM »
I agree 26's, 20's and the like should be able to do some diving bomb runs.

but 17''s and Lancs  going into steep dives on bombing runs are nothing short of absurd And am in full agreement with
KWEASSA

My feeling is anytime you switch to the bombsight on the 4 engine bombers  the plane should automatically stay on auto level. the bombadier should only be able to control left and right  axis.
The pilot should not be able to drop bombs. bombs should only be able to be dropped form the bombadiers position..
And this is comming from someone who totally sucks at bombers.
Hell Im lucky when I drop if my bombs land in the same sector
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Offline hitech

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2004, 06:26:30 PM »
I belive we are debating a none issue here, just how steap of a dive do you belive these bombers do?


HiTech

Offline Lizard3

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2004, 06:46:25 PM »
45 degree's or better. I've seen them get near verticle a few times. I'm with Kwea on this one. VH's seem to be the target of choice. Next is CV's.

Offline Lizard3

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2004, 07:40:00 PM »
OK, HT, do you have a film viewer that works? I have film of a formation of B17's making a verticle dive bomb attack on C40. Guy rolled it over, pulled it verticle(down) dropped his load, lost 2 drones, sank CV and eggressed. Whata frickin pisser. It wouldna been so bad if we hadn't lost the port 30 seconds before hand.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2004, 12:47:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
I belive we are debating a none issue here, just how steap of a dive do you belive these bombers do?


HiTech


I've seen 17's dive on a  base's and carriers at a 45 degree angle on several occasions
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Offline Kweassa

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2004, 07:27:14 AM »
Just today I've seen three~four people upping B-26 formations at the same time to divebomb and destroy a CV I was protecting.

 Even though people love to say that bombers are easy kills, actually it is not, for the most of the average people. It is a dangerous target, not to mention very tough. Sometimes it takes some 3~4 good shots to down a single buff with 5" guns. For most of the pilots, it takes 2~3 people working in coordination to kill all three buffs without any serious damage.

 So, if three people each up B-26 formations that's nine bombers to kill - needing at least 6~10 people to completely get rid of them in time before it reaches its kamikaze destination to the CV. Since the radar range is pretty short, usually when we detect a group of such suicidal bombers ib we have to stop them within about 7~10 miles - which by the time we group up to try and halt them the buffs are barging in at speeds over 300mph.

 Now, if they were coming in the proper manner, they'd be easier to stop - how can it not be easier? A buff coming in a bombrun at only 6~7k alt is dead meat. Anybody flying buffs in the proper manner, hitting stuff, and seeking to get out alive, should come in at least at 10k or more. If they don't abide that proper procedures they're bound to be shot down, and they should be shot down. They're doing it in the wrong way.

 But ofcourse, since the wrong way still yields same results, but takes less time to do it, and since they've got no regards to surival and just want to get the job done, they come barging in when they see the CV. A shallow dive of 10~30 degrees angle, speeding up easily higher than 300mph(if anybody has experience in flying scenarios they would know that bombers going at 300mph, isn't really easy to catch up with and shoot down).

 And at the right moment, with a certain delay and salvo settings they pull up as they drop the bombs, scattering thousands of pounds of ordnance all over the place like cluster bombs.

 And after the pass, they get shot down immediately - but hey, the CV's still down.

 If they've actually gathered 3 people to fly a tight pack formation of 9 bombers to kill a CV, fly it up high at 10~11k, and execute a bombing run, then that's a truly admirable feat. If they do that at 5k in a blazing kamikaze run then it's gaming the game. It destroys the CV, and instantly takes away the ability to take off in planes. Essentially its the same thing as the old fuel porking mindset, except it's done at a bigger scale.

 Now if that was possible and so effective, wouldn't they have done that in real life?

 Ofcourse, in real life stressing the bomber into such speeds would itself be very dangerous. There were crewmen inside the bombers who wanted to live through it to see another day. There were enormous amount of ackfire to face, and if they wanted to bomb something in that manner they'd have used divebombers and fighter bombers, not level bombers.

 They're misusing the buffs, exploiting its ability to carry large ordnance loads so THEY DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THE TROUBLE OF GOING THROUGH ORGANIZNG A PROPER CV STRIKE MISSION, OR TAKING UP BUFFS TO DO A PROPER BOMBING RUN. Basically its a lazy slacker mentality, finding easy exploiting alternatives to what needs to be done properly.

 If the CV went down because we couldn't come up with proper countermeasures to their proper attacks we'd have nothing to complain about - and that's why I don't complain about individual fighter bombers coming in high to dive into CVs(even if they kill themselves in the process). However, if we're put up against something highly unlikely in real life, putting up countermeasures to stop it is more difficult than it should be. While the perpetrator of it all risks just three deaths, he will be rewarded in his lazy efforts by taking away the ability to up planes entirely.

 People say killing CVs is easy. Oh it's easy, if you do it the dweebey way. Doing it in the right way is much harder. But that's how it should be. The wrong way should not be awarded with such glorious results - the game should reward players with success, who take the time to practice it all and do it right, and discourage those who fly it in the wrong way. But instead it discourages people who try it to do the right way, makes fools out of them, while rewarding the dweebs with success.

 In the fuel porking matter, HTC countered it wisely by limiting fuel porkage to 75%, so no one suicidal dweeb can ruin the fight. Now, they can suicide themselves to kill barracks or radar, but that doesn't stop the fight itself. Also, they can do the same thing against FHs, but it takes concentrated effort to kill all FHs, unlike the fuel bunkers of the past.

 It's that same kind of wisdom I would like to see, in this matter concerning people using huge and maginificent level bombers as suicidal ground attack planes.

 Bombers should be bombers. Not an oversized jabo wannabe.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2004, 07:43:56 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Overlag

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2004, 07:42:01 AM »
number one on my list: death should mean something.........

suicides wouldnt happen then...unless they are from japan........
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Please HT, bring end to the dive bombing heavy bombers
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2004, 08:40:24 AM »
Oh ENOUGH with the damn suicide claims already!

Old whine and  mostly lame claim

Do some people suicide? YES
Is it as widespread and rampant as SOME people make it out to be over and over and over again? NO

Most people do NOT suicide intentionally. These mostly bogus claims of suiciders 95% of the time are the result of incorrect perception then reality.

there are any number of reasons why an attacking plane might blow up or crash into the ground. including but not exclusive to damage by invisable ack and manned ack to the control sufaces, Dropping too low and being blown up by the explosion of your own bombs, Inexperiance of a particular plane or just plain newbie inexperiance. Pilot error such as comming in using too sttep of a dive, forgetting to chop your throttle or chopping throttle too late.
these are all things that to the outside observer might LOOK like a suicider but isnt

All of which I have done and some things I still do from time to time.
For example  Last night being the most recent 3 times I was comming in to hit a target.  Once I dropped too low and at a bad angle and was too close to the explosion of my own bomb, and Twice I was killed by manned ack right  right as I was hitting my target.
the night before I was trying out a plane I wasnt used to and it compressed when I didnt expect it to and crashed into my target just as I was dropping on it.
 And on yet another occasion feild ack took out my elevators while in my dive
I assure you that none of these was an intentional suicide.

Now to anyone that was defending the base and saw it
I can see how it might be perceived as an intentional suicide. but it woud be an incorrect perception as the reality of the matter was quite diferent

But its easier to whine about suiciders. Give ya's something to snivel about.  And its SOOO much easier then putting forth any kind of real effort to defend your bases.
And if you say it often enough people actually start to beleive it reguardless of how untrue it is. And the hope is that if it gets whined about enough HTC will beleive it too and do something about it cause these guys arent playing the game YOUR way And everyone knows that everyone insists  everyone else  play the game THEIR way Be they furballer or strat player. And if they dont they're a "dweeb"

Are there suiciders? Yea I think so. but they are by FAR the exeption and not the norm.
I've flown hundreds of flights in the last few years and been on many many missions. and not once have I been in a flight or have heard anyone suicide intentionally. when they die it is usually for one of the reasons above or from people that actually do Something to stop them well before they reach target
but not from intentional suicide.

Now the Divebombing 17s  and LancsI admit are rediculous. Certainly moreso then the 26's which were capable and sometimes used in that manner
But this idea of widespread suiciders is a claim that is mostly and probably  95% BS or based in incorrect perception then in anything that even closely resembles any kind of reality.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty