Planned Parenthood has a new fashionline....

[phookat]

Originally posted by AKIron
Really? Do you believe that it's morally wrong to murder someone? If so, would you impose that moral belief on anyone?

Well the other guy didn't answer this well, so let me take a crack at it.

I think the morals of "A shouldn't directly hurt B" where A and B are humans should be enforced by law.  Some might argue that such morals actually do not depend on the existence of the supernatural, i.e. God...I have trouble with that idea--it sorta works at the societal level but doesn't work at the individual level.  But I also have trouble with the idea of the religious right imposing a lot of victimless crime laws (e.g. prohibition...somewhat religiously based I think), but my "minimal morals in law" statement above I think works. Murder of course falls into that category, as does theft...but not alchohol or drugs or prostitution, for example.

On the question of abortion, it depends entirely on what you consider a human.  If the fetus is a human, the all those "get your laws off my body" arguments hold no water.  So, is the fetus human?  A sperm or egg individually, definitely not.  One sperm in an egg, probably not.  Head crowned and about to come out, definitely yes.  Steps in between, I don't know.

[DREDIOCK]

Oh I am in total agreement that that logic is flawed.
Unfortunately It happens to be the truth.
I've often asked the same question as you

Originally posted by Edbert MOL
There's some flawed logic with that train -of-thought though. Why can a woman decide she is not ready for the responsibility of a child in the first 4 months after conception and release herself from any and all (responsibility) but a man cannot do the same?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by AKIron
Really? Do you believe that it's morally wrong to murder someone? If so, would you impose that moral belief on anyone?

A wise man once said
"There is no true right or wrong really.
It is only a common way of thinking that makes it so"

Your talking apples and oranges.

But if your referring to the "killing" of an unborn fetus as murder I'm sorry but I do not follow that train of thought.
Even if it is possible that said fetus could live outside the womb there is no guarantee that makes it so.
Thus according to my beliefs a person isnt truly alive until they are born and actually living outside the womb. Then it isnt just a possability but is fact. then it isnt just living but is a life.
Everyones life is measured not from conception but from the time your borne to the time you die.
Thats just my feelings on it.
And yes my feelings would be that Peterson killed one person not two
The fetus was a potential life not an actual one. If we were to jail everyone for killing potential life every male in the world would be in jail for masturbating
Would I tell a woman to have or not have an abortion? Never. That is not for me to decide one way or the other
 That is up to her, her individual beliefs and her conscience, and what she can live with these things and these decisions are hers and hers alone. And not for me, you or any court to decide.
And certainly not any church which is where most of this anti abortion rhetoric comes from thus trying to force religious beliefs on others which is clearly wrong (according to common way of thinking)
My own take on abortion is somewhat neutral.
That is choice. Though admittedly I if forced into that position I personally would be less inclined to condone abortion after the second trimester as the likelihood of viable life outside the womb on its own though not guaranteed increases significantly.

[Trell]

Wow I could never say that better then you did DREDIOCK

[AKIron]

Drediock, you said you wouldn't impose your morals on anyone. I asked you a simple question. I'll ask it again. Do you believe it is immoral to commit murder? If so, would you impose that belief on on someone else? I believe you would impose your morals on everyone. It's all a matter of degree and what you happen to agree with. Tell me I'm wrong?

[FUNKED1]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK  Evewrytime I see or hear the abortion debate it reminds me of what George Carlin once said.    A Clean version would be..    "Did you ever notice these anti abortionists are all people you wouldnt want to have sex with in the first place"    By and large its been my experiance that this statement holds true

[/URL]

[Sandman]

Originally posted by AKIron
Drediock, you said you wouldn't impose your morals on anyone. I asked you a simple question. I'll ask it again. Do you believe it is immoral to commit murder? If so, would you impose that belief on on someone else? I believe you would impose your morals on everyone. It's all a matter of degree and what you happen to agree with. Tell me I'm wrong?

You're assuming that everyone agrees that abortion is murder.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by AKIron
Drediock, you said you wouldn't impose your morals on anyone. I asked you a simple question. I'll ask it again. Do you believe it is immoral to commit murder? If so, would you impose that belief on on someone else? I believe you would impose your morals on everyone. It's all a matter of degree and what you happen to agree with. Tell me I'm wrong?

Tell me your definition of murder and I will be glad to give an adequate  responce.

Nice hook. good bait.
I just aint biting

[AKIron]

Better yet, let's define morals. IMO your morals are your sense of right and wrong. If you believe that something is absolutely wrong, like murder for example, you will expect everyone within your society to share this particular belief and most will be willing to "impose" that belief on those without these morals.

If I truly don't believe that murder is immoral why shouldn't I be allowed to commit it without suffering the imposition of your sense of morality?

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Tell me your definition of murder and I will be glad to give an adequate  responce.

 

Even John Kerry beleives life begins at conception.

If you take somones life who is not threatening you ect. it is murder.  

ERGO if you kill a defensless fetus in the womb for no other reason that is in "inconvenient" to you...you commit murder.

These pro choice people think its a womans right to choose to kill a baby with a hearbeat why does it stop there.  Shouldnt a woman have the choice...or as they say right not to have to raise a bunch of brats for another 18 years?

[lazs2]

so dred... you don't believe that men should have the rright to vote on certain things?

lazs

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by AKIron
Better yet, let's define morals. IMO your morals are your sense of right and wrong. If you believe that something is absolutely wrong, like murder for example, you will expect everyone within your society to share this particular belief and most will be willing to "impose" that belief on those without these morals.

If I truly don't believe that murder is immoral why shouldn't I be allowed to commit it without suffering the imposition of your sense of morality?

Again, "Common way of thinking"
Thats what makes it right or wrong.
It is in fact the common way of thinking the world over that the cold blooded murder of a living breathing person is wrong.
So in that context yes murder is wrong.
And while I beleive a fetus to be "living"
It isnt a "life" untill it has exited the womb.

Impose my morals? Well the saying goes absolute power currupts absolutley so to say that I might impost my moral values. Perhaps I will. I wont know untill I reach that level of power but I promise,I will see to it that you will be the first to know:D

Hopefully I will still have the wisdom to know that you deal with different groups of people in different ways and as fairly as possible.
And I will remember that imposing one set standard of values/beleifs on everyone has never historically worked people will tend to live according to their own beleifs, their own values.
In the case of abortion for example for those that do not beleive in abortion will not be forced to have one.
And those who want one can have one without having to resort to sneaking to some back street hidaway with unsanitary conditions.

[DREDIOCK]

LMAO a politician is probably the worst possible example anyone can use for his/her opinion on almost anything. And THAT particular politician....
Well I dont think I have to go to far into that
Im sure tomorrow depending on what group he is talking to his views will be entirely different.
 BTW Im not  Kerry. and I dont believe life begins at conception. I dont even consider it to be a living thing at conception. little more then a chemical reaction going on at that point that could potentially "evolve" yes evolve into life.(another bad word for the kooky "right" but that is another debate entirely)
And if you are going to take it to conception then why not take it back farther? think of how many lives you destroyed the last time you whacked your weinie.
Ever see sperm cells under a microscope? Can you deny that they are alive?
  But you forget I do not view as an unborn fetus as a life until it is living outside the womb. Anything else is potential life.

But the whole debate is pointless really. Abortion isnt going anywhere in any truly significant way anytime soon. Abortion and anti abortion is not the "common way of thinking" either way. And right now too many people want that right not to let it happen. Until that changes legalized abortion will be around.
And I think its going to be around for a long long LONG time.

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Even John Kerry beleives life begins at conception.

If you take somones life who is not threatening you ect. it is murder.  

ERGO if you kill a defensless fetus in the womb for no other reason that is in "inconvenient" to you...you commit murder.

These pro choice people think its a womans right to choose to kill a baby with a hearbeat why does it stop there.  Shouldnt a woman have the choice...or as they say right not to have to raise a bunch of brats for another 18 years?

 :

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by lazs2
so dred... you don't believe that men should have the rright to vote on certain things?

lazs

On this issue in particular. No I dont.
 Be it right or wrong
Men simply do not have a say in it one way or the other.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Shouldnt a woman have the choice...or as they say right not to have to raise a bunch of brats for another 18 years?

Many parts of the country including here in the Northeast  they do.
Unwanted children can be dropped off at the local police station. No questions asked.