Author Topic: BMW801D2 Horsepower at 1.62ata  (Read 8713 times)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2004, 08:55:20 PM »
Quote
I did a quick work up on the 801D using the USN/USAAF test data as the starting point.


Try it with this data if it's not the same you used, gw shaw.

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/bmw801d-1024.jpg

Crumpp

Offline niklas

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« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2004, 01:08:06 PM »
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Originally posted by sfuchs

This covers the system that was used in several 190 A5 ... it is a different system as in the 190 A8 ("increased emergency power without c3-injection"). It is obvious that the system is useless in heights above 1 km, while the system of the 190 A8 is effective up to full pressure heigth in high gear.

- sfuchs -


I have the special page of the A1-A8 manual, but i´m missing the manual page with the extra boost without c3 injection. Can you send me it?

niklas

Offline sfuchs

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« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2004, 02:22:35 PM »
Hello Niklas,

sorry, there is a copyright on the manual, but you can send me your email adress to further discuss the subject, so I can give you the informations you need.

- sfuchs -

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2004, 03:31:41 PM »
The material in Crumpp's links is all copyrighted, from at least 1974, by Valkyrie Publications.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2004, 04:06:33 PM »
Milo,

Like a little dog yapping at your heels.  

Angerman...

1.  It's not my site.

2.  It's not copywrited against electronic distribution nor is any profit being made off the material.

3.  The manuals ARE copyrighted against electronic distribution.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2004, 04:33:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Milo,

Like a little dog yapping at your heels.  

Angerman...

1.  It's not my site.

2.  It's not copywrited against electronic distribution nor is any profit being made off the material.

3.  The manuals ARE copyrighted against electronic distribution.


Such an attitude Crumpp.:( Your are so hung up on copyright, I decided to inform people that the data in your link is copyrighted.

For someone with English as their primary language, you sure have a tough time. I did not say it was YOUR site,
Quote
Crumpp's links



Did I mention the (your) manuals?

If the material in your manuals is copyrighted against electronic distribution, why are you sending material to people?

Rule 4

"Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated."

I do not see any respect, just flaming abuse, in your post.

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2004, 05:11:45 PM »
Yes, it`s a good thing the new rules will enforce the permanent banning of notorious troublemakers from this board, like from other forums. ;)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2004, 08:47:13 PM »
Crumpp, if you were not so pig headed, you would have noticed that Technical Desription No 284 is dated Nov 1944 while your D.(Luft) T. 2190 A-7 bis A-9 is dated Stand, Marz June 1944,  Ausgabe, Juni 1944. The TD 284 is in the D.(Luft) T. 2190 A-8, dated Effective July 1944, Issued Sept 1944.

Just like the 109, there was ammendments. Your A-8 book is outdated.

Here is another tidbit:

Tech description 284, dated 28.11.44

"Based on the requirement to increase a/c range without degrading its aerodynamic efficiency, provision has been made for the mounting of a protected fuel tank within the rear fuselage. After Aug-Sept 1944 all A-8 a/c will be delivered with the fuel tank. If required, instead of the 115l fuel tank, an un-protected MW tank of either 115l or 140l capacity, or a GM1 tank of 85l capacity, can be installed. At the present time, however, it is planned that the standard A-8 will be produced only with the auxliary fuel tank."

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2004, 09:08:02 PM »
Quote
"Based on the requirement to increase a/c range without degrading its aerodynamic efficiency, provision has been made for the mounting of a protected fuel tank within the rear fuselage. After Aug-Sept 1944 all A-8 a/c will be delivered with the fuel tank. If required, instead of the 115l fuel tank, an un-protected MW tank of either 115l or 140l capacity, or a GM1 tank of 85l capacity, can be installed. At the present time, however, it is planned that the standard A-8 will be produced only with the auxliary fuel tank."


AS I said earlier Milo,

The A/C came delivered with the tank.  It was commonly removed in the JG's.  The Jabo-einsatz's and Aufklarar's kept it.  The fighters didn't need the range.  The SKG's, SG's, Jabostaffle, and recon units did though.  Especially in light of the how much fuel C3 burned.  

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2004, 05:43:43 AM »
It is very easy to tell from a photograph Milo if an FW-190A8 has the internal aux tank or not. Provided it shows the left side of the fuselage.  

Without the tank both internal fuel tanks are filled from the right side of the fuselage.  The internal tank fill port is on the left side just behind the pilot.  If fitted with an internal tank, there will be warning triangle for either C3 or LNOX.

I have found only a few FW-190A8/R7-8's with the internal tank and a couple of SKG's, SG's and Jabos.  Most FW-190A8's I have seen pictures of do not have the 115 liter tank installed.

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2004, 10:34:12 AM »
Fighters did not need the range?

from Fw190 Range and Endurance Calculations

A-8 clean(no ETC) /  A-8 (FB, SC500)

0.3km

2300rpm, 360kg/hr > 615km /  575km, 40km diff

2.0km

2300rpm, 370kg/hr > 635km / 590km, 45km diff

3.0km

2300rpm, 350kg/hr > 665km / 610km, 55km diff

5.0km

2300rpm, 360kg/hr > 695km / 630km, 65km diff

both had the aux 115l tank

Not much difference in range between a Jabo and a Jaegar. And, the jaegar needed that extra fuel just as much as the jabos did in a sky filled with e/a.

Was it not mentioned that C3 injection used 70l/5min (840l/hr)? One can't get a performance boost without sacrificing range. Even for 15 min of C3 boost useage, this would burn 40% of the fuel in the main tanks. Was it 30kg you said the aux tank weighed? So the jaegars sacrificed range for a minimal weight saving? :confused: They would not be flying at a speed to save fuel. That does not leave much fuel for flying to and from the air battle, never minding the search for the e/as and the home airfield in the typical Europian cloudy sky.

When were those A-8s produced? If prior to Aug/Sept, they would not have the yellow, white border decal shown, since there was no tank fitted. You can tell this because there is no access hatch above the large access hatch. You need to look harder for I have found numerous jaegar A-8s with the decal shown and many of those had the ETC fitted. The red 22 of JG301, a fighter JG, had the aux tank fitted, for example.

You will find very few, if any, A-8s with GM1(nitrous oxide). The GM1 tank was different from the Aux tank.

Removing the aux tank was no simple job. After popping the bottom hatch, the oxygen spheres and the radio had to be removed and then reinstalled. One could not be sloppy when re-installing the oxygen spheres, since the Germans used pure oxygen.

Offline gwshaw

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« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2004, 11:16:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Try it with this data if it's not the same you used, gw shaw.

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/bmw801d-1024.jpg

Crumpp


Sorry to take so long to reply, I redid my spreadsheet to automatically calculate rammed power and injected power. Now I don't have to get out the calculator and rework the base numbers from the spreadsheet.

Looks like the chart shows 1.42 ata @ 750m or 2460 ft. Call it 2500 ft to make it match my existing line on the chart.

That gives a pressure ratio of 1.56:1 vice 1.60:1 from the USN tests.

1825 ps @ 2500 ft & 1.42 ata +- 1%
1980 ps @ SL & 1.56 ata +- 1%

Max static power would be:

2020 ps @ SL & 1.56 ata w/MW50 -10C
2075 ps @ SL & 1.56 ata w/MW50 -25C

200 mph TAS rammed power would be: (1.65 ata in parentheses)

2000 (2115) ps @ SL & 1.56 ata w/MW50 -10C
2060 (2180) ps @ SL & 1.56 ata w/MW50 -25C

300 mph TAS rammed power would be: (1.65 ata in parentheses)

1985 (2100) ps @ SL & 1.56 ata w/MW50 -10C
2040 (2160) ps @ SL & 1.56 ata w/MW50 -25C

Greg Shaw

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2004, 12:30:23 PM »
Thanks Greg!

I appreciate the hard work.


Milo,

Simply check the photos of FW-190A8's.  Only Fighters I have seen with the 115 liter tank are the R7/R8 and Jabos.  

No one is claiming that they were not out there being used Milo.  Just not commonly in JG's.  For every picture I have seen of an FW-190A8 with a 115 liter tank, their are twenty without it.

It was not very hard to remove it or replace it.  

It was option.  As it should be in AH.

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2004, 01:03:12 PM »
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Removing the aux tank was no simple job. After popping the bottom hatch, the oxygen spheres and the radio had to be removed and then reinstalled. One could not be sloppy when re-installing the oxygen spheres, since the Germans used pure oxygen.



Milo,

Looks to me like it came right out the top. Slide the canopy back then reach behind the pilot, popped two QR bands, disconnected the fuel line at a brass fitting ****, then popped out the filler/vent plate.  Pull it right out.  It was only a 30 gallon tank.  About the same size as a LP gas tank for your grill.

The Allies used pure O2 also Milo.  The Luftwaffe used liquid O2 tanks and the Allies used compressed O2.  Both are equally dangerous.  For handling purposes the compressed is very dangerous.  Just a drop of petroleum based substance in contact with pressurized O2 and it will combust and explode.

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2004, 03:17:51 PM »
Crumpp, get the Fw190A drawings by A L Bentley. He use original Fw documentation. On these you can see that the tank is too wide to come out the top. These drawings are 1/24 scale.

I would post them but the scanner is down and they are copyrighted. You can order them from a place in the UK. http://www.nexusonline.com/pages/nexusdirect.cgi

go Nexus Direct > Modelling - Aircraft > Scale Drawings > World War II