Author Topic: 190 vs SpitIX  (Read 3957 times)

funked

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2000, 09:15:00 AM »
Yeah never trust me, I play dirty.  

Just ask Weazel about the last time he tried to hunt my Tiffie.

I'm gonna get my bellybutton kicked at the Con.  

Offline Vermillion

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2000, 09:52:00 AM »
Sounds like we fight the same Funked  

Last night this 109G6 was chasing my Pony and I kept him right at 2.5.. then closer then closer (got the hook set real good at about 1.5).

He never noticed the P-38 that I vectored right too him, and I never let my speed get so high that I ran away from him.

And then it was simply a matter of how many rounds got expended, and whether me or the 38 got the kill  

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Offline Dingy

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2000, 11:54:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Anyway, if you want to talk about 190A8 vs Spit... ...IMO the Spit is dead, it has simply no chances to win. Any combat coalt co  E will finish with the Spit destroyed or with a draw. If the 190 is chased by the Spit, 190 pilot can extend to d2.5 or d3 and then just zoom climb and invert, the gained distance works in favour of the 190 in that climb, same tactic is applicable to P51D vs Spit.


Well truthfully, dunno if I would be say the spit is dead.  I agree, its very easy for EITHER plane to force a draw.  

If I were the spit, I would zoom after the merge and watch for the 190 to try the Immelman.  If I see the lead turn coming, I zoom and wait until I've outclimbed him.  At this point the 190 will have to nose down to gain speed since Im gonna outclimb him and break away.  I wont even bother chasing him since Im not gonna catch him.  Rather I pull up into a max climb and watch the 190 run for the hills.  DRAW...and this time the spit forced it.

-Ding

Offline Dingy

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2000, 11:56:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Last night this 109G6 was chasing my Pony and I kept him right at 2.5.. then closer then closer (got the hook set real good at about 1.5).

He never noticed the P-38 that I vectored right too him, and I never let my speed get so high that I ran away from him.

And then it was simply a matter of how many rounds got expended, and whether me or the 38 got the kill  


Yeah Verm, I noticed last night how you MOL over at 27 used these teamwork tactics to perfection.  Dunno how many times I had to break off attacks on one plane cause another was creeping up my six.  

-Ding

Offline Minotaur

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2000, 12:28:00 PM »
I can beat or force a draw in a Spit vs 190 by using the one thing the 190 needs against it.  

Speed

1st Objective - equalize E
2nd Objective - push for angle / altitude

1st Rule - don't dive after the bastage  
2nd Rule - grab while chasing

This will all be modified when the A5 hits the scene. Currently there are simply too many F4U's to occupy my SA and very few 190's.

If I lose, I got ambushed or because I misjudged the 190's vs my E state.  I didn't have enough E at the onset to put up a good fight.  190's spend their time getting E and generally attack with lots of it.  

I don't remember the last time a 190 shot me down, except when I was flying a BUFF.  

I am foolish enough to try a HO sometimes but I lose 90% of my HO's vs any plane.  

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Offline F4UDOA

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2000, 04:07:00 PM »
Here is a new tactic thats eems to be carried over from AW3 arena's that I noticed some Spit drivers working on yesterday. I fly the F4U instead of the FW-190 but many of the characteristics are the same so see if you can follow me. Co-alt 15k Spitty fakes head on and slides to one side and down. I start a high chandellel to the right side as he passes. Watching him as I go he split-s down and back under me. Now I'm coming down and he is coming up but no angle for a shot. Now I'm screwed because I'm in a looping contest with a Spit and he is gaining slowly. Finally he is in my six so I flat sissor on the deck and hope for an overshoot which I get, but again no shot because I am to slow and can't get my nose around or upfast enough. He climbs gets an angle and I'm in the hanger looking for my key's. Personally I considered it a victory to stay alive that long. I can't stand to here people scream about the guns on the F4U because for everything it can do well there are ten it can't do at all. The worst modeled A/C in the game. Yuck!

F4UDOA

Offline bloom25

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2000, 04:14:00 PM »
When you get to TA 183, let me know.    For those of you who haven't heard of this beast, let me give you a few of the details.  It was a jet powered fighter that used wire guided air-to-air missiles.  It even flew, but in Argentina after the end of the war.    According to experts it would have been the equal of the F86 and Mig15.



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Offline Kieren

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2000, 04:45:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Here is a new tactic thats eems to be carried over from AW3 arena's that I noticed some Spit drivers working on yesterday. I fly the F4U instead of the FW-190 but many of the characteristics are the same so see if you can follow me. Co-alt 15k Spitty fakes head on and slides to one side and down. I start a high chandellel to the right side as he passes. Watching him as I go he split-s down and back under me. Now I'm coming down and he is coming up but no angle for a shot. Now I'm screwed because I'm in a looping contest with a Spit and he is gaining slowly. Finally he is in my six so I flat sissor on the deck and hope for an overshoot which I get, but again no shot because I am to slow and can't get my nose around or upfast enough. He climbs gets an angle and I'm in the hanger looking for my key's. Personally I considered it a victory to stay alive that long. I can't stand to here people scream about the guns on the F4U because for everything it can do well there are ten it can't do at all. The worst modeled A/C in the game. Yuck!

F4UDOA


Now please, don't take what I'm about to say as a flame, it isn't.

Worst modeled plane in the game? What do you mean? Do you mean that HTC has done a poor job recreating it, or that it has the worst flight capabilities? Either way, how do you explain that it has one of the highest kill/death ratios in the game, unless the guns assist the poorly modeled plane?

As for the fight you described, there were some options:[list=1]
  • You take the HO. Not a good one, as the Spit had already evaded, and you would have lost some E trying.
  • When you saw him go down, you zoom up. Assuming you had lots of E on merge, you should get more out of it than him (and you do have to accurately gauge his E!). You roll back down on top of Spitty who realizes following your zoom was a bad idea. Never follow the Spit in the Split-S!
  • Extend towards friendlies if E is low.
  • Loop hard (good initial turn on F4U) and get a snap- you only need one.
  • If you find yourself in the mess you were in, roll nose over and spiral down tightly near blackout. When speed builds, flatten out and get the hell out of Dodge. The Spit will black out before you do, so chances are you will get away.[/list=a]

    Another thought; make that Spit pass on the left side of your Hawg. Turns to the left are easier at high AoA in that high-torque bird.  

funked

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2000, 04:48:00 PM »
LOL F4UDOA, you get in a Typhoon, I'll get in an F4U and we'll see who's plane is the worst-modeled!

Nath-BDP

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2000, 05:33:00 PM »
The History channel sucks, read a book, hehe, the Ta 183's speed was estimated at about 597mph (the version that flew in Argentina after the war proved that its top speed was over-estimated) at 23k which places it 100 mph slower than the F86 and 60 mph of the 'studmuffinot'(that was actually the Allied reporting named for the Mig15 :P).

In rate of climb terms, the Sabre and studmuffin again blow the competition away with the Ta183 struggling along at only 4740 ft/min, the Sabre at 9.3k a min and the studmuffin at about 8.5k ft/min.  There are many other comparisons I could make, but its just  waste of time, I dunno who those so-called experts are, but they need to refine their research sk1| |z.  

If the 183 had entered operation service after its scheduled test flight for May/June 45 and first production machines completed by 10/45, the 183 would most likely be carrying the RUHRSTAHL-KRAMER X4 (the one you see on the 183 in that History channel episode that aired this weekend), the X4 was the first guided missle with A2A capability used during World war 2 it used 2 control wires connected to 2 wings on each side of the X4, which were connected to the wing and controlled using the FuG 510 guidance system using the "Dogge" and "Meise". It would be flown to the proximty of the enemy bombers then it would automatically explode by the means of an acoustic fuse.  The first X4 prototypes had straight wings but it was then realised that swept back wings on the X4 would compliment its use on faster-moving Jet aircraft, thus reducing air resistance.  A warhead of 20kg or 44lb would be fitted in the nose behind the proximaty fuse that would be detonated by the noise of target bombers.  All in all 1,300 of these missles were produced, however, most of them never received their engines because the BWM plant had be destroyed by allied bombers.  At the end of the war during many of the X4 test flights it is beleived that severel of them were launched against allied bombers, however, the X4 was never actually deployed to the Luftwaffe.

Offline Vermillion

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2000, 05:40:00 PM »
Thanks Dingy  

We were in the zone last night, and things seemed to work to perfection.

Was a great couple of hours of intense fights for me.

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Offline RAM

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2000, 06:24:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by bloom25:
When you get to TA 183, let me know.    For those of you who haven't heard of this beast, let me give you a few of the details.  It was a jet powered fighter that used wire guided air-to-air missiles.  It even flew, but in Argentina after the end of the war.    According to experts it would have been the equal of the F86 and Mig15.

Correction,Bloom. Mig15 was a direct develop from Ta183. You only need to see that plane to know they are at least, brothers.

F86 was developed from Ta183 in some sense,too. Sabre was going to be a straight wing jet, but captured german investigations on swept wing, including TA183 design, were used to turn it the world beater it was...although MiG15, IMHO, was a bit better  

Offline Spatula

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2000, 08:50:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
This is a disaster, we started with 190 planes vs only one Spit and we already lost 3...  
Well, the topic was not related to 190A8, just 190 Cessnas armed with briks vs one Spit armed with shield and dagger.

Anyway, if you want to talk about 190A8 vs Spit... ...IMO the Spit is dead, it has simply no chances to win. Any combat coalt co  E will finish with the Spit destroyed or with a draw. If the 190 is chased by the Spit, 190 pilot can extend to d2.5 or d3 and then just zoom climb and invert, the gained distance works in favour of the 190 in that climb, same tactic is applicable to P51D vs Spit.

Everytime i try to go vert with a spit on my tail when im a pony i get an bellybutton full o' lead   The spit will be a full speed and zooms very well. I take it if he cant zoom with you, you just hammerhead and come down on a slow spit    But not many spit drivers are that silly. Please explain you prefered procedure re zooming up with a d 2.5 sep.

Spat.

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Offline MANDOBLE

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2000, 07:33:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Spatula:
 Please explain you prefered procedure re zooming up with a d 2.5 sep.

Zooming in vertical using only trims just with 2.5 sep and with speed advantage (increasing separation before climb). Rolling a bit while climbing but maintaining the pure vertical, going up to almost stall and then rolling again to invert and nose down. If the Spit is loosing the race at 2.5 and you go vertical with a heavier plane like 190, he will not be able to gain more than 1.7 in vertical separation to get into fire possition. He can get close, but with so low speed he will not be a stable firing platform at d0.8 or 0.9. You have gained 2.5 in horizontal separation, he has gained about 1.7 in vertical, not enough to get the kill, and not enough to evade your hammerhead. 0.9  vertical separation in a zoom climb will give the 190 the definitive E advantage for any evolving combat if hammer fails.

Offline F4UDOA

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2000, 09:38:00 AM »
Keiren,

Not a flame at all. Appreciate the feedback.
Anyway my wine about the F4U is simple. The flight model is based on a physics model that may or may not be accurate. If there is one thing I have learned about physics models in the last year from AH is that there are many ways to solve for the same problem. But only one correct way. And that being said a physics model is only that. Just a model.
I have a Grumman report on the anticipated flight performance of the F6F. The best Grumman engineers worked on it and they were way off. I think a lot of actual flight test data gets ignored by the creators of AH. Why I don't know. Maybe they think they know more than the test pilots that flew them. I have read many, many flight test reports on the maneverabilty of the F4U at low speed and high speed. It was very good in this regard. It did however have problems trying to land on a carrier at low speed but it was still better in stabilty and control Army counter parts. Domestic and foreign except for the Spitty and it's Italian advisaries.

I know many people are totally frustrated with the killing power of the -1C. I would certainly give those cannon up if maneverability of my faithful mount were fixed. I wonder if any of those people have good numbers of how many C202 or 205's were actually used in combat. I know there were many kills acheived in the 200 hundred -1C's at Okinawa and a couple of aces as well. Also the -4 varient was overall the most produced F4U of the bunch. Uber as it might be.

Anyway I will leave you with this. In an evaluation done by the Navy in Jan. 1944 of the Fw-190A-5(soon to be in AH) vrs the F6F-3 and F4U-1D it showed that the F4U could not only out turn and loop the 190 but that from a head to head merge with the 190 that in one turn it would be in firing position behind the A-5. Also from a position directly behind the 190 that in three turns it could completely turn inside it and be on it's six again. It also rated their acceleration as being equal. Currently the F4U is slightly better than the A-8 in a turning fight. We shall see what the fighter gods bring us in the A-5(it may make you forget the -1C). As a side note while the F4U did not see combat against the Luftwaffe the F4F and F6F did. And they acheived a pretty good kill record during that time. Possibly becuase some of the data aquired in these flight test could be applied in actual combat.

Thanks F4UDOA
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