Author Topic: 190 vs SpitIX  (Read 3960 times)

funked

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2000, 10:40:00 AM »
F4UDOA, it is quite easy to out turn the 190 in an F4U in this game.  If you can't do it, let's set up a training session.

Also that same USN report shows the Fw 190 outclimbing the F4U easily in any situation!  Won't happen here.  

"I think a lot of actual flight test data gets ignored by the creators of AH."

In my experience, the planes in this game match flight test data very well!  F4U is dead on the numbers, so is Fw 190, etc.

Offline F4UDOA

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2000, 12:40:00 PM »
Funked,

You are exactly right and exactly wrong in the same sentence. The F4U can out turn a Fw-190A8 in the game today. But the Flight test was against an A-5. The A-8 is a much heavier bloated model of the A-5 which was the ground attack version of the A-4 which was the best dogfighter of the A series. The question is will it out turn the A-5 as well.
Also I have a complete copy of the fight test performed. You may not have the entire report as I did not until recently. Yes the A-5 out climbed the F4U but not at all speeds and altitudes. At 140Knots or approx. 160mph the F4U was superior. From all speeds and alts up until 180knts the Fw190 was superior, until 25,000ft and 180knts were the advantage for the Fw190 decreased. And at 200knts at 25,000ft were they were again equal. Best climbing speeds for each A/C were 135knts for the F4U and 160Knts for the Fw190-A5. So the F4U climbed at a slower steeper angle than the A-5. Also the A-5 had an initial climb of roughly 3500fpm. Almost 1,000fpm better than the A-8. As far as the max speed and climb I have no problem with the text book numbers matching the game performance. Although at one time the climb was porked pretty bad. It is fixed now. What I have a problem with is that the F4U has a very low stall speed straight ahead or in a 3g turn during actual flight testing but in AH it stalls at rediculously high speeds and is regularly out turned in AH by A/C with higher wing loading. i.e. P-51, 109-G10, P-38. During testing the 3g stall speed was determined to be 150mph. That's about 50mph lower than the AH model.
I'll trade my cannons in today for better handling.

Also funked I would be happy to do two things.

A. e-mail you a copy of the full flight test as well as the P-51B vrs the F4U-1 and 1A.
(that one will really blow you away). I also have FW-190 test between it and virtually every allied fighter in production.
B. meet you in the training arena or regular arena and you can determine if I know my bellybutton from my ADI.

Thanks F4UDOA

funked

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2000, 12:51:00 PM »
LOL Nice answer F4UDOA!!!!  <S>

I'd like to see anything you have!!!!!!


Offline MANDOBLE

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2000, 08:27:00 AM »
Me too, if you are so kind, send the test data to MATIAS.S@teleline.es

Flying 190A8 most of the time and having some experience with F4U1, it is clear, at least for me, that F4U can outturns 190A8 at low speeds. Used to fly 190A8, IMO F4U1 has a nice handling. Loaded with same amount of fuel, the Corsair turns as well as P51D with/without flaps at stall speeds.

Offline maik

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2000, 09:10:00 AM »
F4UDOA,

Plz could you mail me the testinformation too? Here's my adress: maik@blackadders.de

 
Quote
The A-8 is a much heavier bloated model of the A-5 which was the ground attack version of the A-4 which was the best dogfighter of the A series.

Where did u get that info? As far as I know, was the A5, just an advanced series.
Some "Untermodelle" (sorry dunno the english word here :/), which means some of the A5/Rxx were later renamed to F2 and/or F3 and became the ground attack models.

I am still at work   (nervously lookin around), but i will check detailed data later.

Thanx

Maik
 
 

[This message has been edited by maik (edited 05-11-2000).]

Offline StSanta

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2000, 09:16:00 AM »
Heh, just post a link to it. I want it too  



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Offline Baddawg

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2000, 10:11:00 AM »

Offline F4UDOA

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2000, 10:39:00 AM »
Wow,

I will send to everyone who has asked.
I whish I had someplace to post this stuff or I would. It will be zipped in JPG format.
Sorry, don't know how to scan it into Adobe.

F4UDOA

Offline StSanta

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2000, 01:07:00 PM »
F4UDOA; I have web space available (free too, one of the good parts about being a Geek Wannabe (comp. sci. student).

I'll be happy to put it up.



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Offline jmccaul

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2000, 01:14:00 PM »
Me too please.

jmccaul@btinternet.com

funked

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2000, 04:00:00 PM »
Guys, I posted it on the Web:
 http://www.raf303.org/funked/usn190a5.htm

Thanks DOA!

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-11-2000).]

Offline wells

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2000, 04:14:00 PM »
F4U,

A 3G stall of 150 eh?  That makes for a 1G stall of 87 mph (76 knts).  That's correct for an 11300 lbs airframe with FULL flaps! (according to the manual)  With no flaps (ie, normal combat type turn), ur lookin' at 84 knts (power on) or 97 mph, giving a 3G stall of 168 mph.

For a 12000 lbs airframe, that goes up to 173 mph, as indicated in AHT.

Offline Vermillion

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2000, 05:16:00 PM »
Thanks F4UDOA for providing the document, and thanks to Funked for posting it  

Interesting reading.

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Offline F4UDOA

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2000, 06:31:00 PM »
Wells,

I get most of my information from two sources. One is AHT (America's Hundred Thousand) and the other is another Schiffer publication "Report Of Joint Fighter Conferance 1944". One was written by
Francis H. Dean and the other was edited by him. In any case the stall speed I gave was directly from the flight testing in which several pilots (approx. 30) listed the stall speeds in a clean, dirty and 3g accelerated condition. The result for the F4U-1D was 150mph with the range being from 130mph to 190mph. All A/C including F6F, P-51D, P-47D and M, Seafire(Spit V), F8F-1, F7F, P-38L, P-61 and FM-2 were tested with range and average given. I think this is about an accurate an accesment that could be made considering there was more than one A/C being tested as well as many pilots civilian military and British doing the testing. I think this book is a must read because of the comments received on many of these A/C.

As far as the stall speed listed in AHT well that is more complicated. I read that and thought something was wrong because of the max lift coefficient given to calculate the 3g stall speed. So I contacted the auther of AHT Francis H. Dean and found out he is my neighbor. He lives in Pa. not far from Phila. so he agreed to have me come over and dicuss this with him and sneak a peak at his research. First let me say that he is the nicest man you will ever meet and second the most knowledgable considering he has worked in the Aerospace industry as an engineer since the 50's and has many original documents that are hard to find. Hence the Fw-190 vrs F4U and F6F as well as P-51B vrs F4U-1 and many others that he has lent to me. However if you read the section on landing the F4U in AHT you will find the lift coeffient listed as being 1.88.
Which was reduced from 2.30 from the original wing design after the addition of a small spoiler strip to reduce unsymetrical stalling  was added to the port wing. When Mr. Dean did his 3g stall calculation he used a much lower lift coefficient of 1.48. Were this comes from I do not know and he cannot remember (he is now 75yrs old so he is more than entitled to forget). However I did locate on the web the original NACA document listing all of the MAX lift coefficients for American iron including a whole page on the F4U special wing modification. So to make a long story short I believe the Max lift was much higher than the 3g stall speed would indicate. And the flight test results of 1944 would seem to bear that out. The following is just that document online.
 http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-report-829/index.cgi?page16.gif  

Also I did some ofline testing of many A/C inculing F4U, P-51, P38, Spit V and IX, N1KI, C205 and 109G10. All A/C with the exception of the Spit V and IX and N1KI had approx. the same stall speed of 100MPH indicated and a 3G stall of between 180 and 200MPH indicated at 10K. The Spits were so low as to make a 3G stall almost impossible. In any case I would guess it would occur at between 130 and 150MPH. The N1KI went out at about 150 to 160MPH. I didn't realize that most of the A/C mentioned were porked in that regard until I did the testing. In any case I am starting to ramble so I will just continue later. If you want to thank someone for the documentation I provide thank Mr.Dean. He has forgotten more about WW2 aviation than most of us will ever know.

Thanks F4UDOA

funked

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190 vs SpitIX
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2000, 07:18:00 PM »
F4UDOA Here is your mission.

Go to Mr. Dean's house.

Scan everything!

Email it to me.