Author Topic: "safety" of little tin can cars.  (Read 1162 times)

Offline Staga

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« on: July 29, 2004, 06:12:28 AM »
J-A-B wrote in another thread;
Quote
Yet another real world demonstration of the "safety" of little tin can cars.


That's one thing which really depends how well car is built to last crashes.
For example my small familycar Peugeot 307 (weight 1300kg/2800lb) managed to get better reviews in crash tests made by EuroNCAP than many bigger cars.

Friend saw this in "RL"; A guy made a suicide by driving his 307 straight to nose of a 18-wheeler in full speed.
Whole nose of the car basically disappeared but the cabin itself kept its form; even doors were straight after the crash. Even this couldn't save the driver; guess the G-forces were too much or something...

Car won't have to be big as 70s Cadillacs to be a safe one; all it needs is some high-tension steel, good design and plenty of airbags.

Offline Staga

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2004, 06:16:34 AM »
Hmmm and some thought SUV's are safe cars? Jeep Cherokee 2002...

Offline Nilsen

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2004, 06:24:34 AM »
nothing would save the suicide driver if he wasnt using his seatbelt....using belt when killing yourself is rather silly so i suspect he wasnt using it.

just my thoughts, and it was halfway on topic :)

Offline Staga

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2004, 06:31:44 AM »
Heh I didn't even thought about seat belts; Been using them from seventies and personally I'm surprised if someone is so stupid he don't use them if car has them.
Of course if your goal is to move to an another dimension then go ahead; put a rope around your neck and tie it to the back seat... :)

Offline Holden McGroin

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2004, 06:44:53 AM »
This measure of safety has the premise that safety is achieved by designing the vehicle to absorb the energy of the collision in a way to spare the occupants.

Some small cars enhance safety by avoiding the collision in the first place with enhanced maneuverability.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2004, 06:57:15 AM »
My Golf GTI is a bunch more maneuverable than any SUV or 70's Cadillac gunboat.  Wouldn't call it a sports car exactly.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2004, 06:59:46 AM by Holden McGroin »
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2004, 07:08:20 AM »
ever try to hit a squirrel while driving down the road? Pretty tough to do.

Just saying being a good broken field runner is sometimes as good a defence as wearing a suit of armour.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2004, 07:16:32 AM »
I guess you're not going to get my point.  I got your's several posts ago.  I've played billiards, I understand transfer of energy in a collision.
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Offline J_A_B

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2004, 07:16:43 AM »
Staga--

I don't know how Finland rates cars for crash effectiveness.  

I do know this:

In the USA, the system of crash testing is completely and deliberately rigged to disproportionately favor smaller cars.  

Why?

Because as GScholz pointed out, it is a matter of weight.  In the USA, cars are crash tested in a manner that replicates a crash against a vehicle of equal weight .  

This means that a Honda Civic has to stand up against an impact from a 2700 pound vehicle to get a good rating......while my Buick has to survive an impact from a 4200 pound object to get the SAME rating.  Problem is--in a REAL crash, you can't just choose the weight of what hits you!

Guess what happens if the 4200 pound Buick hits the 2700 pound Honda.  Well....it isn't pretty for the guy in the Honda, despite the fact that the Honda gets a slightly higher "government safety rating".  

What a crock of baloney!

If government crash data was actually meant to be a reliable indicator of vehicle safety, it would simulate a crash against a vehicle of "average" weight.  This would cause the smaller cars to invariably fare very poorly and hence the manufacturers would balk.


Another problem with many small cars is that they aren't made to transport heavy loads and have rather inadequate tires and suspension due to cost savings.  This applies to the "economy cars" (eg. Civic/Focus/Cavalier and such) and not really to small performance cars or things like Subarus with AWD.  It is disturbingly easy to make something like a Ford Escort fishtail at speed simply because the tires are inadequate.  Adding passengers only compounds this problem.  Factor in the poor state of maintenence such cars are usually in (nobody drives an Escort ecause he's rich after all) and you have a recipie for trouble!


As for SUV's?   Note that I am always talking about cars...SUV's are deathtraps due to their high CG and poor handling.  I would never feel safe driving one of those on a highway.  I hate them almost as much as I hate small cars.  I view an SUV as nothing more than a jacked-up station wagon that trades safety for "cool factor".  Not an equitable trade as far as I'm concerned.

And certainly--not using your seatbelt is completely retarded no matter what you drive.  Statistics show you are about 40!! times as likely to be severely injured/killed if you're not wearing a belt.

I don't have statistics on the relative death rates of people in different vehicle sizes.  I do however see this in action in the real deal all too often.  I speak from experience.

One example out of too many:

Cement truck versus Honda Civic (the civic made an improper left turn into path of Cement truck)....result--no survivors in Honda (four dead).   Same model of Cement truck a month later against a Buick Electra in the same situation (same intersection actually) at the same speed....result--the two people in the Electra survived; one of them was still walking.  Car was all bent up and partially crushed, but it kept its occupants alive.

I've seen Cadillacs get hit by trains and people survive....I've seen a Beretta have its entire top half torn off when a semi ran completely over it.  I've witnessed more than my fair share of accidents and dealt with the aftermath of far more.  The most gristly was the Honda I mentioned above.  There were a bunch of kids in that one out for a joyride.  I still get angry thinking about it.

Small cars are simply inherently unsafe.  No amount of affordable tech will change this.  You are gambling with your life if you willingly choose a smaller vehicle.  It's not a risk I'm willing to take, because what you drive is one of the few things you DO have some control over on the road.  You can't make people stop drinking, you can't make people pay more attention--but you CAN put as much metal as possible between you and the other guy!



J_A_B

Offline straffo

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2004, 07:18:20 AM »
GScholz it's right and wrong :)

Right from a physic stand point but wrong for safety as it depend alot on the design of the cars.

I won't bet on the passenger of a old design 2 ton car without seatbelt and airbag :)

Offline straffo

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2004, 07:20:25 AM »

Offline J_A_B

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2004, 07:24:52 AM »
Holden--

I sincerely hope that your driving SA is so good that you will always be able to foresee the unexpected!  And I hope your reflexes are so excellent that you'll always be able to avoid a sudden change in events.  I wouldn't count on it though--not even racecar drivers can always avoid crashes!

In my experience the VW Golf is a pretty unsafe car with unspectacular handling (my wife's friend has one so I have some experience with it).  At more than 55 MPH my land-yacht of a Buick will handle better with more stability and less chance of spinning.  Heck I ran over a wooden matress frame once at 70 MPH and kept it on the road!  Small cars frequently feel like they have better handling than they really do because they are uusally given stiff shocks which helps them corner good at low speed.  If your Golf has better than the stock tires than they could make it hadle a LOT better.  It would be a wise investment if you haven't already done it.

EDIT:

Thanks for the link regarding Euro testing procedures Straffo!   As with the American tests, it appears that it simulates a crash against a vehicle of equal weight although I will have to do more studying to confirm this.

J_A_B
« Last Edit: July 29, 2004, 07:49:58 AM by J_A_B »

Offline Holden McGroin

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"safety" of little tin can cars.
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2004, 07:30:50 AM »
Hmm... I've never hit a wooden matress frame... I've managed to avoid those.  And all else for that matter.  Chalk one up for my side.
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Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2004, 07:33:35 AM »
I will say this:

In the last decade, smaller cars have generally become a little bit safer.  This is due largely to an increase in mass.

My favorite example, the Honda Civic, has gained almost 600 pounds over its last few revisions.  This is a good thing as almost all of that extra weight is used directly for beefing up the frame and body.   Tire and suspension quality is also generally improved.   I still wouldn't trust my life with one or recommend one, but at least they're marginally more survivable now.  Certainly the manufacturers noticed the inherent lack of safety in smaller cars and are trying their best to make them better, which is why you don't see me railing against the auto industry.  People seem to want the little cars nowdays, and the industry is trying to make an inherently unsafe concept as good as it can possibly be.

EDIT:

As for the matress frame, I had utterly no chance to avoid it.  Some jerk most unexpectedly threw it out the back of a truck directly in front of me...cars on both sides so I had nowhere to go.  This was in Michigan just south of Detroit; I think those people are nuts!


J_A_B
« Last Edit: July 29, 2004, 07:37:05 AM by J_A_B »

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2004, 07:36:23 AM »
I love my FWD in the snow... I'll take a FWD over a RWD in the snow anyday.  I haven't needed traction devices in 10 winters, no problems.
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