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Author Topic: Books on the Spitfire  (Read 1226 times)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2004, 03:29:32 PM »
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That is because you still insist that the weight is with all guns in the A-8. As noted previously, your weight is the weight with 2 cannons and ammo removed.



No Milo It is not.  It is clearly marked as Jagd-einsatz I (2 x MG131, 4 x MG151/20E).

Crumpp
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2004, 04:26:51 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
No Milo It is not.  It is clearly marked as Jagd-einsatz I (2 x MG131, 4 x MG151/20E).

Crumpp


Well it is an error then. The weight you give plus the weight of 2 Mg151 and ammo equals the weight I give.
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2004, 04:50:29 PM »
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Well it is an error then. The weight you give plus the weight of 2 Mg151 and ammo equals the weight I give.


Nice figures on the Hp-wt ratios.  Now factor in the drag.  You will find most of those plans don't outaccellerate the FW-190.  

Especially the Merlin Powered spits.  Now at certain altitudes they could but for the majority of the sky, especially at lower altitudes

I don't think so, Milo.  There is only 2 jagd-einsatz's listed.  Both are the same except one includes the ETC 501 rack and a 300 liter droptank.  Empty weights are the exact same for both jagd-einsatz.

When you do the math and add up all the listed weights in the chart using their maximum values.  It all adds up to the weight the Luftwaffe has listed.  The only thing different is the empty weight of the A/C.  Your EMPTY weight is much lighter in the FW-190A3 and much heavier in the FW-190A8.

Again though it is a mute point.  Pyro has the data from the Flugzeug-Handbuch's and will choose to use it or not.

Crumpp
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2004, 06:34:26 PM »
Please don't fight too much over 100 lbs.

Apart from that, lots of nice data :)
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2004, 06:44:29 PM »
LOL

Enjoyed the discussion Angus!  Thanks for your insight.


Crumpp
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2004, 07:31:01 PM »
You welcome M8.

My favourite input persons (In no particular order):
Crumpp
Izzy Pop
Milo Morai
GUPPY
Gripen
Nashwan
HoHun

That is, on this forum.

Generally....also, GScholz (very educated) and Boroda (Ummmm) come to mind.
;)
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2004, 08:09:12 PM »
Yeah I have been keeping an eye out for Hohun.

He's got some charts I want to get off of him.  I have to admit that Guppy is one of my favourites too.  What a Gentleman.

Crumpp
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2004, 06:07:11 AM »
Angus: "It's vice would be a very vicious stall" (<-190)

Where did you get that from A?

AFAIK the wing profile of 190 gave it a tendency to snap roll in high speeds if pulled too much but the conrol was recovered immideately after the plane had snapped. This was considered a handicap in low level fights where there was not much time and alt to recover if the plane happened to roll into inverted position. I have never heard that 190 had bad stall or accelerated stall characteristics meaning total loss of control with considerable loss of altitude before recovery. In fact the snap roll tendency could be used to advantage by skilled pilots.

The Spitfires elliptical wing with a washout was, of course, more forgiving in this matter BUT due to its overly sensitive elevator contol (which was probably cured to some degree by adding the counter weight) the a/c could be pulled into an accelerated stall state quite easily and AFAIK the elliptical wing is the one that has the vicious stall caracteristics as the loss of contol is total once a stall is entered.

Too bad the present day sims are unable (or unwilling) to model control harmony features.

Ty guys, a good thread in all!

Edit: What also troubles me on the page on J22 is this: Lack of sufficient torsional rigidity of the wing.

To my knowledge based on NACA 868 and related documents the rigidity of the wing and control surfaces was the strengt of the 190 without which it could not have had such phenomenal roll rate. The clipped wing Spit could get close to it but I cannot understad why removing the wing tips had such great effect as the wing was still quite thin in the tip.

-C+
« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 06:17:04 AM by Charge »
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"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2004, 12:34:01 PM »
That's good question and I wondered that myself.  Reaching here but I know the FW-190A5 the NACA tested was rather worn-out.  In the tactical trials it was missing main wing spar bolts that had to be replaced.  

You can find the report here:

http://prodocs.netfirms.com/

I have never heard of the 190 wings flexing either.  The solid control rods and stiff wing with large ailerons gave it a great instantaneous rate of roll.

Crumpp
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2004, 03:38:48 AM »
Just so you did not think I slinked away crumpp. My weight list came from document D.(Luft)T.2190 A-8 which included the Technical Description 284 dated Nov. 30 1944.

You insulted me by saying I would post your scans.;) I do have integrity. You can send them to MiloshMM@hotmail.com.
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