Originally posted by Angus
Romanina cavalry on the Southern Flank of Stalingrad.
I don't know the exact strength of the Germans in N Africa, but based on the troops they lost there my estimate above could be quite true.
Tell me again if you think the USSR had won Stalingrad if the entire Axis African army had been there...
Angus stop now.
The number of Germans surrendering at Tunisia in 1943 was at the lowest near 125,000, of them 90.000 Heer members. The rest of the approx. 250,000 surrendering troops were Italians.
We can take a highest probable number from the following reports
30 March 1943: which gives 5.Pz.-Armee strength as 60,150 Heer, 35,000 Luftwaffe, 5,500 Marine, 400 Italians and 1,950 Wehrmacht Gefolge
31 March 1943: which gives German strength in Afrika as 109,178 Heer, 54,264 Luftwaffe and 5,540 Marine (that figure includes both 5.Pz.-Arme and the Germans in 1.It.-Armee)
10 February 1943: which gives Italian strength at that time as 192,000 army troops (including natives) and 21,000 air force navy and civilian workers, a total of 213,000 (unfortunately I have been unable to locate complete Italian reports for later dates)
So a figure of about 169,000 Germans and 200,000 Italians by 1 March does not seem unreasonable, and makes Allied reports of 250,000 Axis PW perfectly plausible but they are not all Germans and would have no difference in Stalingrad.
Why are you purposely distorting the importance of Tunisia? I can guess that’s because the last battle the English had a major contribution.
Romanians were not on the "Southern" flank". The Germans didn’t loose Stalingrad because of "lack of troops". Even if the Germans won in Tunisia they still would have been occupied and unable to help in Stalingrad.
You are posting nonsense that is beyond ignorant at this point.
Here's the best web source in English about Stalingrad
http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/I doubt you can read this map anyway but look to the North, Do you see the River Don.
As the Germans pushed toward Stalin grad they hadn’t taken the time to clear several large Russian Bridgeheads. This gave the Soviets "jump off point" for the North portion Operation Uranus. Now read which Axis troops were defending that area. The Romanian 3rd Army was the main Axis protagonist at the decisive place on arguably the most decisive day of the entire world war: 19 November 1942 on the River Don. Had Hitler reinforced the Romanians with Manstein's 5 divisions form the Crimea instead of transferring them North and had actually looked at the map
and made and effort to eliminate those bridgeheads the Soviets would not have broken through as quickly.
Hitler made another fatal mistake following Operation Blue
Again Hitler changed plans, he transferred Manstein's five divisions from the Crimea to the Leningrad front instead of the Caucasus, assuming that the Russian were almost beaten.
Once his forces had reached Rostov, Hitler decided to split his troops so that they could both invade the rest of the Caucasus and take the important industrial city of Stalingrad on the Volga River, 220 miles northeast of Rostov. Army Group South was divided in two parts. Army Groups A and B. In the north, Army Group B, (Stalingrad) commanded by von Weichs. In the south, List commanded Army Group A
(Caucasus). Hitler's generals are stunned.
This decision was to have fatal consequences for the Germans, since they lacked the resources to successfully take and hold both of these objectives.
Hitler failed to reinforce his drive toward the city but more importantly he split his forces sending Army Group A south into the Caucasus in hopes of securing the oil fields. That never happened. Maikop was blown by retreating Russians. By the time the Soviets launched Uranus there was huge gap in South between Group A and 6th army in Stalingrad. I doubt you can comprehend any of this but Tunisia would have made little difference. Those troops could not have redeployed to Stalingrad anyway.
The decision to hold 6th army in Stalingrad was a mistake based on false assumptions and false promises made by Goring to Hitler. Stalingrad wasn't the "tragedy" as you seem imply either. Army Group South recovered somewhat and were able to rebuild a defensive line. Its importance was that the Germans would never again be able to get that close to the oil fields in the Caucasus. That was the whole goal to begin with.
Also you forget (or are unaware) at the time of Operation Uranus the Soviet launched Operation Mars against Army Group Center. Mars was a complete failure and Zhukov's worst defeat of the war. Had the Soviets achieved their goals with Mars we Satlingrad would hardly be mentioned.
http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/fmsopubs/issues/countrpt/countrpt.htm Operation Mars cost the Red Army nearly half a million men killed, wounded, or captured. Individual Soviet combat units were decimated in the operation. The Soviet 20th Army lost 58,524 men out of its original strength of over 114,000 men.72 General Solomatin's 1st Mechanized Corps lost 8,100 of its 12,000 men and all of its 220 tanks, and the accompanying 6th Stalin Rifle Corps lost over 20,000 of its 30,000 men.73 At lower levels the cost was even higher. The 8th Guards Rifle Corp's 26th Guards Rifle Division emerged from combat with 500 of its over 7,000 combat infantrymen intact, while the 4,500 man 148th and 150th Rifle Brigades had only 27 and 110 "fighters," respectively, available at the end of the operation.74
Soviet tank losses, correctly estimated by the Germans as around 1,700, were equally staggering, in as much as they exceeded the total number of tanks the Soviets initially committed in Operation Uranus at Stalingrad.75 In Western armies losses such as these would have prompted the removal of senior commanders, if not worse. In the Red Army it did not, for when all was said and done, Zhukov fought, and the Red Army needed fighters.
Of all the thing that were taking place during this period Tunisia was at the bottom of the list.
